Training Development Officer ( TDO )

[JM2345]

That any and all organizations would benefit from a larger and more intelligent applicant pool

So even if all of the additional applicants to the Canadian Forces were either:

a) Not able to pass the medical.
b) Not planning to stay past 1-2 years.
c) Were convicted felons.
d) One of a million other reasons they might not be suitable for the Canadian Forces.

You are telling us, the Canadian Forces would in the end receive a net benefit and be better off overall as long as the applicants are intelligent and there are more of them?

What are you basing that off of? That's all we really need to know. Seems like you are using some pretty wild assumptions based off of nothing factual at all.

In reality, a larger talent pool probably only means 2 things:
More money spent to try to process the applications.
Longer waiting lists for applications to be processed.

That's it. There are only so many positions available. They aren't going to fire someone who is already in a position because they just got 50 new qualified applications. You have to wait.

 

[Teager]

I'd also like to say i'm a YOUNG person and I got in without this FACT that its not really an option. It always has been an option. You either want to do the job or you don't. Plain and simple.

 

[Michael OLeary]

For young people its a known fact that its not really an option

You still have not established this with any data to back it up.

Do the math if you care to.....its an extremely low percent

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2011/06/25/war-in-afghanistan-caused-surge-in-army-applicants_n_884522.html

In 2009-10, the Canadian Forces received 25,738 applications, up dramatically from the 2001-02 fiscal year, when applications numbered 13,504 — a figure that included existing soldiers seeking transfers to other units.

With the mission winding down, the Forces received 18,881 applications in 2010-11.

....

Of course, some of what the mission gave the Canadian Forces, it likely took away as well: the annual rate of attrition bulged to 6,217 in 2008-09, up from 4,265 in 2004-05, before dwindling to just shy of 4,700 in the 2010-11 fiscal year.

So, we're an organization of about 90,000 people. We have attrition in recent years of about 4500-5000. To refill the ranks we are still seeing over three applicants per lost service member.

In your mind, how many applicants do we need for each entry level soldier or officer position? Remember, we review candidates in quantity and intake tens and hundreds at a time across a variety of trades. We do not recruit for individual positions. If we need 100 infantry soldiers, and find 100 suitable candidates in the first 300 applicants, why do we need to look at more files when to do so we first have to change the way we attract those applicants to get the files?

Two further points:

1.  You completely ignored my comments on the way we recruit to fill the organization from the bottom up, which is not like corporations. You haven't established that your theory works in the context of the CAF's needs.

2.  I was around in the 1980s, when we couldn't recruit people fast enough to match attrition and we refused Voluntary Releases to soldiers who had not completed their initial engagements. In those days everyone in high school knew that the CAF was an option ... as in "If you can get a job you can always join the Army." Comparatively, what we see today is an abundance of suitable candidates, not the shortfall you seem intent on convincing us needs to be fixed.

 

[JM2345]

For young people its a known fact that its not really an option

This is getting ridiculous. You are obviously just trying to piss everyone off. If you read this forum for a few minutes, you would see dozens of kids ages 15-25 asking for advice on applying for a position with the Canadian Forces. I am in my mid 20s and I am in the process of applying. I have my initial application in, and 1 month has already come and gone. I plan for it to take up to a year for my application to be processed. What is 1 year to try to get a career that will change your life? I lived in a town with a Reserve base last year, and 90% of the people running the day to day duties are all young people aged 18-30. You have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[brihard]

For young people its a known fact that its not really an option


But since you resisted personally attacking me

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2011/06/25/war-in-afghanistan-caused-surge-in-army-applicants_n_884522.html

At its peak around 25000 applications out of 30,000,000

Do the math if you care to.....its an extremely low percent

First, claiming 'it is a known fact' does not at all make it the case. It's a good thing none of the young folks I have personally sent to the recruiting centre as a reserve regiment recruiter knew this 'known fact'. However simply claiming 'everyone knows' is one of the simplest and most common logical fallacies. It lends no strength to your argument. The actuality is that applying for the military is an option for every Canadian meeting the necessary basic criteria. You can pretend all you want that it's not an option, but it is. My unit, last year, had about 70 or 80 people express interest in the 10 infantry positions I was allowed to recruit for. That's just one example.

Second, your math is rather off. Our total population is 33 million or thereabouts, however manpower fit for military service (per CIA world factbook) is approx. 13 million. 25,000 applications annually is roughly a fifth of a percentage of our population who could serve. That's not half bad. Most importantly, it likely reflects the level of actual INTEREST in the military. The simple truth is the majority of people don't want to be military. They have other ambitions. They have objections to what we do. They don't like the nature of the work. They prefer a more stable family life. Whatever. You'll need to demonstrate that other careers attract higher proportions of the eligible workforce if you intend to demonstrate that somehow we're doing things wrong.

We are getting the people we need, and excluding the people we don't want. We have more applicants than we have spots, and are turning away more qualified, educated, experienced people than has been the case in a long time. We have tested our military in battle, and our recruiting approaches are for the most part validated by our success on operations. No amount of opinion, speculation, conjecture or flat out straw man fabrication on your part changes this.

 

[Sir Dip a lot]

Your right JM - not That i am trying to piss any of you off, but that this is ridiculous. An innocent point of view that has turned into a free for all


And Mr. O'leary I am sorry for not responding I am trying to keep up with all of the different arguments taking place simultaneously

Im going to do myself a favor and stop with all of this....none of you seem to be willing to believe that generally Canadians do not consider the CF an option....i think 25,000 applicants as a recent peak sheds light (especially since apparently a lot of those are from one unit to another and repeat applicants)


If .0008 of canada seems like enough people to you guys well then it will always suffice....yes I realise the number is what Brihard stated after I did not feel like going to the cia fact book to satisfy all of you

You guys have turned an innocent comment and statement about how I felt not a lot of Canadians consider the CF (which I felt deplorable as it is the highest of callings) into some childish argument amounting to no more than a waste of everyones time

 

[mariomike]

Sir Dip, if interested.

RECRUITING AND RETENTION OF MILITARY PERSONNEL: CANADA
http://ftp.rta.nato.int/public/PubFullText/RTO/TR/RTO-TR-HFM-107/TR-HFM-107-02B.pdf

 

[Michael OLeary]

If .0008 of canada seems like enough people to you guys well then it will always suffice....

What we are seeing meets the organization's needs and, therefore, does not compel change.

The past has proven that Canadians step forward to fill the need when the need expands.

...in 1914 and 1939 ... The number of trained personnel in the Canadian Militia for the year 1913-14 was only 57,527  while the Canadian Expeditionary Force saw a total of 628,462 Canadians in its service."

"... the Permanent Force had only 4,261 all ranks in mid-1939, every unit being under strength." The Militia saw another 46,251 train in 1938-39. So who, exactly, were the other men and women that made up the wartime strength of the Canadian Army, which saw the service of 730,625 soldiers and support personnel, in Canada and abroad, during the Second World War."

Source - http://regimentalrogue.com/papers/the_regimental_system.htm

 

[brihard]

If .0008 of canada seems like enough people to you guys well then it will always suffice...

This is seriously the only part of this you need to get through your head... Yes it IS enough, since those who simply don't want this profession don't merit consideration, whatever else they may bring to the table.

The proof is in the pudding. The Canadian forces have proven ourselves capable of attracting the necessary people to do our job. Supply and demand have met in the military labour market in Canada. To expend further effort to widen our nets beyond what is necessary to provide for our needs would distract effort and detour resources away from actually doing what these people are hired to do.

If you aren't able to grasp this simple truth, there's nothing I or anyone else can do to help you better understand the profession you want to be a part of someday. You will find, however, that if you get in and make a habit of embarking on little crusades outside of your area of expertise, and claim 'personal attack!' when you are rightly shut down by people in the know, your career will not be an enjoyable one.

 

[Sir Dip a lot]

This is seriously the only part of this you need to get through your head... Yes it IS enough, since those who simply don't want this profession don't merit consideration, whatever else they may bring to the table.

The proof is in the pudding. The Canadian forces have proven ourselves capable of attracting the necessary people to do our job. Supply and demand have met in the military labour market in Canada. To expend further effort to widen our nets beyond what is necessary to provide for our needs would distract effort and detour resources away from actually doing what these people are hired to do.

If you aren't able to grasp this simple truth, there's nothing I or anyone else can do to help you better understand the profession you want to be a part of someday. You will find, however, that if you get in and make a habit of embarking on little crusades outside of your area of expertise, and claim 'personal attack!' when you are rightly shut down by people in the know, your career will not be an enjoyable one.

Personal attack was someone aka journeyman making comment about an injury i am recovering from

I grasp what you are saying....no one aees  to be able to admit that not a lot of canadians feel it is an option....i know you know the demographics of who joins generally...i was only ever trying to say that a larger and more diverse applicant pool would benefit an organization....i was merely making a societal comment that i felt all canadians should feel the call within them and be brave enough to answer it


But anyways due to the fact that none of you will take anything i have to say serious i am actually not going to repond on this topic again

 

[Teager]

OH were not taking you seriously? I didn't know there could be so much sarcasm in one forum  :facepalm:

 

[JM2345]

Im going to do myself a favor and stop with all of this....none of you seem to be willing to believe that generally Canadians do not consider the CF an option....i think 25,000 applicants as a recent peak sheds light

Now you are just going off on an entirely different idea. You are simply saying now that the majority of Canadians do not seriously consider a career with the Canadian Forces. And you are suggesting that is somehow a problem that the Canadian Forces needs to work to "correct". Many people in the military need to kill other people in the course of their duties. Some people in the military will get killed in the course of their duties. It doesn't matter how streamlined you make the recruiting process, how much money you offer, what type of benefits you provide. A lot of people simply are not interested. And we don't want nor need those people to apply. If the Forces wanted those people, we would have mandatory service.

 

[brihard]

Whatever. He's just lacking the experience or knowledge to 'get it'. It is what it is.

 

[JM2345]

i was merely making a societal comment that i felt all canadians should feel the call within them and be brave enough to answer it

No, you were not. That is an outright lie.

In a perfect world CF would have more funding and actually make it easy for willing citizens to join.

You said the Canadian Forces doesn't make it easy enough for WILLING CITIZENS to join.

My point of view is that of the more the merrier.....basically just find it unfortunate as i know of at least 5 people who would have joined if they thought it possible to happen in a timely manner.

Here again, you say "the more the merrier" suggesting that the Canadian Forces should just try to get as many people as possible, and that the reason people aren't applying isn't because they aren't brave or don't feel the call, but instead because the application/recruiting process might not happen in a timely manner.

Please don't lie to us. We are a lot smarter than you think, and would you believe that some of us aren't even University graduates?

 

[Jester_TG]

This thread has made my evening.  ;D op:

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Changed the title of this thread to better reflect on where it went.....................and when I figure out where that is I'll let you all know. :facepalm:

 

[Jarnhamar]

....you guys can say whatever you want against that point but dont worry i actually wont be posting anymore

The mob wins haha mob mentality is a good thing right?

Goodnight and I stress GOODLUCK

Lol it was so I skipped a couple grades to resolve that

I kept it civil

Merely made a couple jokes...not like anyone makes jokes on here or anything...

I kept trying to but everyone was chiming in so I had to stand my ground

etc.. etc..

 

[Loachman]

Skipping a few grades doesn't make anybody smart in the real world.

In fact, premature promotions have been the downfall of many people, as they lack the experience necessary to succeed.

What we, here, have, Sir Dips, is experience.

Collectively, plenty.

You have how much again?

From what I have seen, your self-claimed intelligence doesn't even come close to making up for your lack of experience.

Simple concepts - simple even for us "stupid" military types - seem to be beyond you.

If we require X number of recruits annually, and we receive, say, 3X applications that meet enrollment standards and each application received requires time and effort to process at some expense to taxpayers, what possible benefit could there be to anybody if we seek to receive 10X?

X people are still going to be enrolled, not 10X and not even 3X.

Justify the expense that you wish to blow, and the larger number of disappointed people, please. You have not done that. And those would be the only results of your proposal: wasted money and increased disappointment.

You just keep saying the same thing over and over again, with no substantiation whatsoever.

Nobody agrees with you, and for good reason (like logic and experience) but, of course, in your eyes we are all wrong, and know nothing about our jobs - and a system that has been working quite well for several decades is also wrong - and you are the only one right.

You, sir, have delusions of adequacy.

Good luck with your application.

From what you have demonstrated here, luck will be all that you have going for you.

 

[jwtg]

What I've gathered from reading the 4 pages of this thread is the following:

1) The OP thinks that a larger applicant pool is better for the CAF, and feels that this is an indisputable fact, and that everyone who disagrees with him is as ridiculous as someone saying that the Earth isn't round;

2) The OP feels that that the majority of young people don't consider CAF careers as viable options; and,

3) The OP promises not to post again in this thread (multiple times).

4) The OP either doesn't know how, or doesn't care, to use grammar or punctuation, or develop an effective argument.  He's pretty good at claiming his opinions are facts, though, and crying foul when others show him otherwise.

My responses:

1) Multiple people (Michael O'Leary, for example) have already provided reasonable counter-arguments to your assertion that more applicants = better, so unless you can indisputably prove that their assertions are wrong, you cannot claim your belief as fact.  I think the point you are making is that the CAF would get better people if we got to pick from more people.  It seems like a reasonable thought, but unless you have an impressive, conclusive research study with an impressive amount of data, I, and obviously others, are certainly not sufficiently convinced to accept your ravings as fact.

2) Your 1 statistic from the huffington post fails to list every other employer in Canada and their market-share of the young talent pool.  I imagine no single profession enjoys a 'majority' of young people as applicants, so I don't understand how you claim that only having 25,000 applications indicates that the CAF is not perceived as a viable career by young people.  How many applicants do police forces have?  How many want to be firefighters? Paramedics? Lawyers?  Doctors?  Provide all of the relevant data, as well as extensive survey data containing applicant's motivations in particular career fields and I might start to see things your way.  Until then, I'll judge that, based on the amount of impressive young people I've met at my school (RMC) or in other places in the CAF already, we have enough good, young people who know that the CAF is a viable career option.

I also challenge you to consider other factors which may reduce our applicant pool and which are not the fault of the CAF but rather reflect either life style preferences or other character traits, things like: unlimited liability, the possibility of being posted around Canada/the world frequently, spousal occupation portability, physical fitness requirements, etc.  If people aren't willing to get posted, put their lives on the line, or order others to do the same, they probably won't fit in the CAF, and that might be a reason that they don't apply.

IMO, you are not doing enough to establish that poor public perception, or any other specific factor, is a significant cause in young people not wanting to apply to the CAF.

3) Enough said.

4) Ditto.

 

[Spooks]

This was a long thread to read on a Monday but one I enjoyed reading nonetheless.

Here are some of my OPNIONS about all this in an as objective of a way as I can present.

1) Why aren't people drawn to join, as 'hear the calling' as it was put?

Well, there is a thing in the military that everyone who serves has agreed to - unlimited liability. Not a lot of people are okay with that. They value their lifes and in a psycology sense, is a heathy level of narcissism. It's very hard for people to understand that you may be called to do something that has a chance of you losing your life. To the OP, I suppose if we eliminated that, then more people would join too. I consider that as always an extreme fact of why people do not join. Here's a nice article on this topic: http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Soldiers+have+unique+take+liability/6877609/story.html

2) Why was there an increase of applicants during A-stan?

As was illustrated before, Canadians historically 'answer the call' in times of war. WW1 and WW2 are great examples of that point and many people answer the call. Not everyone joins 'b/c they want to do their country proud'. You see in Hollywood of Americans enlisting b/c they wanted the glory of going to war. Again in this past war, people flocked to the RCs just for a chance to go over and 'do the army thing'. Now that we're not, many people are getting out due to not getting a chance to get on the bandwagon. It's like they believe the only thing in the army is shooting weapons at the enemy, throwing grenades, and being GI Joe. No chance of war so they want nothing to do with this. These are the people who cannot handle 'bossy superiors who (in their view) have no clue what they are doing. They whine about being kept after 1500. They groan about having LDA removed or decreased though they have dodged every field exercize in the last two years. Yes, some of these people may be 'more intelligent' in booksmarts than I. They may have scored greater on the CFAT or be able to lap me twice on a 10km run. Are these people necessarily better than me as a soldier? That is a subjective opinion but many of them likely think so.

3) Woud having a more 'intelligent' recruiting pool to choose from be of greater benefit to the CAF?

I suppose, logically speaking, yeah. On paper that makes sense. However, first you have to define 'intelligence'. If by meaning 'book smarts' then no. You can be all kinds of book smarts but have a crappy attitude or one that gives up easily. How about 'strength' smarts? Again, it's the ability to hunk'er down and go with it mentality that I find is the most useful. People who have control in their lives are greater fireteam partners than those who are an administrative burden.

I find that today's generation (yes, I am in it too) are an entitled generation that must have lots handed to them for little to no work. Marks, grades, fitness/weight/diet, looks, finances, equity, etc - all are given for little to no effort put it. I find our generation largely is the blue-participation-ribbon-winning, pat-on-the-head, outstanding-job-for-doing-nothing group of people that if we do not achieve the level we desire we assume it's the other party that is wrong or broken or faulty. It is now the rare case that you find the people who don't get 100% on the test or fail the exam or do not meet the standards that go 'hey, the only person to blame is myself. I need to work harder (or continue working towards) in order to reach my goal.' I read a great article lately (can't remember where or when) that talked about that exact same concept. You have the 'kids who did the best at everything due to being given to them' and the 'kids who know what hard work is'. I would much rather have the latter person as my fireteam partner. They likely will stick around when the going gets tough rather than 'peace out' when they become challenged or bored. It's usually the former group of people that see themselves as above s*** taskings and who produce little effort.

I have another 15yrs on this contract (with another 19 after that family pending) and I know I'll be at the end of my career with the others who never had a sense of entitlement, who did the crap taskings with me, bail out water from a flooding trech with me and was always there to help me fold cam nets (for the 10th time that week). Do those people need to have a 3.8 GPA? Nope. Some of my most cherished friends in the military were not booksmart, but I would trust the life of my family unto them.

So to the OP, when you say 'Would the military not benefit from a larger pool of intelligent/smart/educated/whatever applicants?' I would say no. As an NCM (yes, could be different than the officer world) I do not judge your CF-member capability based on how well you can do on a test or spit out an essay. I measure you on whether or not you are humble, dedicated, wise (very different from smart), trustworthy, and capable. No university in Canada can measure that for me. No test can determine your suitability. No application can determine if you have my back when the fit hits the shan. If people are dissuaded from a career in the military b/c of a long wait time, then I am fine with that. I will gladly take the next chap who has dedicated 1yr+ of his life to reaching his goal.