Training Development Officer ( TDO )

[Chelomo]

I give up. Think what you want, good luck in your application.

 

[JM2345]

But I find fallacious the argument that a smaller applicant pool is better than a larger applicant pool.

Nobody here is making that argument. Reality and ideal scenarios are a lot different. In an ideal scenario, we would have the most qualified and intelligent people apply for positions they are best suited in, and be willing to stay in that position for their entire career. In an ideal scenario, only the amount of qualified and intelligent people needed to fulfill the available positions would apply. That is ideal.

In reality, if we had a larger amount of people applying for the Canadian Forces, we really can't say with any confidence that we would have a net benefit.

Some highly qualified applicants who may be interested in a 20 year career with the Canadian Forces may be passed over for a more highly qualified applicant who quits after 2 years because he got offered 3x the salary somewhere else. Some highly qualified applicant who is willing to pull the trigger may be passed over by someone who "doesn't believe in war" when the time comes, because he wasn't as good of a bullshitter during the interview.

You can't look at the benefits and ignore the potential, and very likely, drawbacks. Can you really say with any certainty that the Canadian Forces would get a net benefit from having more people apply? What if everyone who is NOT applying due to the perception of a lengthy and difficult recruiting process are people who would quit 2 years in to their contracts, because the Forces wasn't really what they wanted and it just seemed like an easy gig?

You are telling us that spending more money on processing applications, and turning down many other qualified applicants with more patience and determination, should give the Canadian Forces a net benefit, and I just see no evidence to back up that statement. It is nothing more than a wild guess.

 

[Journeyman]

Frankly you've been running in circles long enough now that I'm having a hard time picking out any concrete point you're trying to make.

As near as I can tell......

a) he's arguing that the 'best and brightest' of his peers are not applying to the CF because the process takes too long;

b) he's doing physio for some injury so that he can join the CF.

Therefore, he seems to be saying that he's neither the best nor the brightest, and apparently doesn't meet our physical standards to join.....yet somehow we're all f*cked up as far as recruiting goes because we're not willing to change the standards and/or process to meet what he somehow expertly deems to be what's best.

:stars:


Yep, straight to <ignore>  :

 

[Sir Dip a lot]

As near as I can tell......

a) he's arguing that the 'best and brightest' of his peers are not applying to the CF because the process takes too long;

b) he's doing physio for some injury so that he can join the CF.

Therefore, he seems to be saying that he's neither the best nor the brightest, and apparently doesn't meet our physical standards to join.....yet somehow we're all ****** up as far as recruiting goes because we're not willing to change the standards and/or process to meet what he somehow expertly deems to be what's best.

:stars:


Yep, straight to <ignore>  :

Lol didnt argue that in any way

This forum has an affinity for skewing peoples statements and making asinine personal attacks

You should be extremely proud journeyman....

 

[brihard]

A classic case of 'everyone else is wrong, and I am the victim'...

 

[Sir Dip a lot]

A classic case of 'everyone else is wrong, and I am the victim'...

A classic case of the old generation taking too long to move out of the way

 

[Michael OLeary]

A classic case of the old generation taking too long to move out of the way

Would you now like to suggest that we push people out the door just because there's a line-up at the recruiting centre? Why don't you sell that amazing strategy to the Teacher's Unions.

 

[Sir Dip a lot]

Would you now like to suggest that we push people out the door just because there's a line-up at the recruiting centre? Why don't you sell that amazing strategy to the Teacher's Unions.

Ha

You guys need to stop making up fantastical statements pretending they came from me
Cant accept the fact that My point was pure logic so you guys stoop to making it seem like I said something that clearly I did not

 

[brihard]

A classic case of the old generation taking too long to move out of the way

I beg your pardon? How old, exactly, do you think I am?

Or, if your comment is more general than that, why is it that you think our generation is somehow entitled to jobs that the previous generation hasn't had the decency to retire or die out of yet?

If you're concerned about the availability of jobs because they're all locked down (they aren't- just wait for a WestJet seat sale to Calgary or Edmonton, and if you don't suck at life you'll be good to go), why not take that business learning you've got and start your own enterprise? You have no entitlement to be handed work by someone else if you're thus far unable to market yourself.

You're really coming across now as being of the 'entitled' cohort of our generation that gives the rest of us a bad name...

 

[Michael OLeary]

Ha

You guys need to stop making up fantastical statements pretending they came from me
Cant accept the fact that My point was pure logic so you guys stoop to making it seem like I said something that clearly I did not

Which logical point was that?

 

[Sir Dip a lot]

I beg your pardon? How old, exactly, do you think I am?

Or, if your comment is more general than that, why is it that you think our generation is somehow entitled to jobs that the previous generation hasn't had the decency to retire or die out of yet?

If you're concerned about the availability of jobs because they're all locked down (they aren't- just wait for a WestJet seat sale to Calgary or Edmonton, and if you don't suck at life you'll be good to go), why not take that business learning you've got and start your own enterprise? You have no entitlement to be handed work by someone else if you're thus far unable to market yourself.

You're really coming across now as being of the 'entitled' cohort of our generation that gives the rest of us a bad name...

I called someone out for a post that fits the definition of a "troll" and you respond with making it seem im decrying myself to be some sort of victim....thought we weren't supposed to make personal attacks

My comment about the older generation was merely a comment on how eventually logic prevails over entrenched ideas

It just so happened i thought of it because of your post to me

 

[Sir Dip a lot]

Which logical point was that?

That any and all organizations would benefit from a larger and more intelligent applicant pool


I think some of my detractors must have been arguing for the sake of arguing

 

[Michael OLeary]

The problem that the CAF has with an increased applicant pool is that we have to complete processing (to whatever point of failure) on files before we tell someone they are unsuitable because of CFAT score, medical, etc. Each applicant costs the system time and money. Unlike corporations, we don't get to take in all the resumes for a certain position, and "round file" the bottom 90% without another process. Every applicant beyond the rate needed to provide suitable applicants is a drag on a system such as we run. That, unfortunately, invalidates your hypothesis as far as the CAF is concerned. Pure business models don't work in the real world in all situations.

 

[Sir Dip a lot]

The problem that the CAF has with an increased applicant pool is that we have to complete processing (to whatever point of failure) on files before we tell someone they are unsuitable because of CFAT score, medical, etc. Each applicant costs the system time and money. Unlike corporations, we don't get to take in all the resumes for a certain position, and "round file" the bottom 90% without another process. Every applicant beyond the rate needed to provide suitable applicants is a drag on a system such as we run. Than, unfortunately, invalidates your hypothesis as far as the CAF is concerned. Pure business models don't work in the real world in all situations.

I understand where your coming from...

A drag on the system vs. having the best possible workforce is a choice though....yes i realize hard choices have to be made in all areas of life.

The CAF is making the choice due to constraints on the system....you guys are picking one opportunity cost over another....the funny thing is that my ORIGINAL point was that i felt it unfortunate that most Canadians dont even consider the CF as a career option - which some posters took offense to- that was when I brought up how its always best to have more options than less....which even more people took offense to

Im sure you can admit if more Canadians felt it was an option the CF would be better for it

 

[Teager]

Sir Dip a lot do you have any facts or any sources that say a lot of Canadians don't consider the CAF? For all we know tons of people DO consider it. So unless you have actual statistic data proving your point you don't have much of an argument.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Im sure you can admit if more Canadians felt it was an option the CF would be better for it

It wouldn't change the number of people we take, only make the process of selection more laborious. There is no clear advantage to clogging the recruitment gateway more than it already is. The only visible result would be larger numbers of disappointed people complaining about why they weren't selected. We recruit to fill entry-level positions for soldiers/sailors/airmen and officers; from THAT pool we later select for leadership training and advancement which constitutes a series of ever-narrowing gateways of opportunity.  "Stacking the deck" doesn't create an organizational advantage when every recruit feels they are specially destined to be the CDS. We also need a broad range range of people including those who will plateau at various level to fill our organization because we cannot go back to the pool of applicants and select middle managers like a corporation does.

 

[brihard]

I understand where your coming from...

A drag on the system vs. having the best possible workforce is a choice though....yes i realize hard choices have to be made in all areas of life.

The CAF is making the choice due to constraints on the system....you guys are picking one opportunity cost over another....the funny thing is that my ORIGINAL point was that i felt it unfortunate that most Canadians dont even consider the CF as a career option - which some posters took offense to- that was when I brought up how its always best to have more options than less....which even more people took offense to

Im sure you can admit if more Canadians felt it was an option the CF would be better for it

No, your original point was that you apparently know a handful of people who skipped joining the CF because recruiting took too long, anda re now 'firmly entrenched' int he business world. From there you're making assumptions that the plural of anecdote is data, and that somehow this is indicative of flaws in the CF recruiting system. Probably the only[/i[ criticism you've brought up with any specificity is how long it takes to process recruits.

We - those of us replying to you who cumulatively have well over a century of CF service in a variety of roles - have informed you (note the words I'm choosing to use) that the CF recruiting process is what it needs to be to ensure the right people end up enrolled. You are choosing to fire off replies without hearing what is being said by the actualy professionals of the institution that you are choosing to try to weigh in on the workings of. Quite literally you are not equipped with the institutional or corporate knowledge necessary to make these pronouncements you're making.

We have sought and struck a balance between attracting those applicants who actually want it, and enrolling the right people. That in turn has allowed us to get very good and wrecking stuff and people on behalf of Her Majesty, a consideration to which all other matters are secondary.

You contend that the CF is not getting the best possible workforce, because too many people 'don't consider it an option'.

Newsflash: It IS an option. Those who don't consider it to be are not those who actually bring to the table the legitimate interest in the profession that is critical for people to make effective soldiers. They have merely selected themselves out before it became necessary for the recruiting or training systems to - two things you have zero relevant experience in, but that many of us do.

If you still insist on this silly notion that we are detrimentally limiting the efficacy of our recruiting simply because we allow the process to take as long as it needs to, then you simply don't grasp the intent of what the recruiting system does for our institution. It's already plain that you think you have much more knowledge than you actually do on what the Canadian Forces need.

I really don't know what more we can tell you. You seem to want to hear yourself speak, but will not listen to the several of us who actually know what we're talking about and who have very patiently tried to explain to you why what you think you have diagnosed as a problem actually isn't.

 

[Sir Dip a lot]

Sir Dip a lot do you have any facts or any sources that say a lot of Canadians don't consider the CAF? For all we know tons of people DO consider it. So unless you have actual statistic data proving your point you don't have much of an argument.

For young people its a known fact that its not really an option


But since you resisted personally attacking me

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2011/06/25/war-in-afghanistan-caused-surge-in-army-applicants_n_884522.html

At its peak around 25000 applications out of 30,000,000

Do the math if you care to.....its an extremely low percent

 

[ttlbmg]

In all honesty, wouldn't one consider all Canadian citizens as "potential candidates" for the Canadian Forces? As one of the previous posters stated, thoughts without intention or follow through are just that, thoughts. I am not a mind reader, so I could not say that there have not been millions of citizens considering a career in the CF.

I would argue that a lack of new graduates from "your generation" applying to the CF lies more in the hands of "your generation" than in application process of the CF. Your argument is that many of the best and brightest choose the private sector over the public sector because of material benefit. Is that not a generational issue as opposed to a flaw in the current system? I agree, the CF recruiting process can take a long amount of time, but if the job is not available, the job is not available.

The point you brought up that sat uneasy with me was your annoyance at the fact that you are not able to apply for TDO because of your educational background. You do not have the proper education in order to apply for direct entry into the TDO profession. The current standards to apply for direct entry into TDO is EITHER a Masters level education in Educational policies, or a Bachelor Degree in education, and additional experience. Being that you do not meet these requirements, you are unable to apply. I do not understand your questioning this. There are not really any current professions that waive educational requirements in order to serve the supposed best and brightest. In the same token, the amount of direct entry TDO applications is limited. This is because the CF prefers to have members with experience in the training and instructing within the CF to assist in the development of training methods and directing the future of the CF. To argue that you have more to offer than someone with the correct experience and education seems an ignorant comment to make.

I believe that by applying stricter standards on occupations within the CF, one could argue that these standards allow for only the most suitable and ideal candidates to apply. If you want to become a TDO, then go to school and earn the proper degree. Then apply to the CF when the TDO profession is open. Be the person with the highest CFAT score, perfect medical history, and give a phenomenal interview. Then you will move from a consideration of the CF as an occupation to being a proud member of the CF.

 

[Teager]

Do the math eh? Hmmm out of 30 000 000 people how many are children? how many are seniors? how many are disabled/sick etc? Not to mention you have to have other people doing other jobs within Canada. Also you said "consider" many can consider but not put an application in.