Guns, Gangs and Toronto

[48Highlander]

This is going to sound racist.. hell maybe it IS racist..

Toronto will never solve it's gang problem untill it, and certain communities.. own up and face some hard, uncomfortable truths.

What truths? Well. Well over 90% of "street gangs" are "non-white" That statement makes people uncomfortable.. but it is true.

And....?

How will "owning up" and facing "some hard, uncomfortable truths" help?  What's your solution?  Deporting all blacks?  Or maybe we can just give police the power to randomly stop and search anyone guilty of being black?

I'm not disputing your basic assertion - you're absolutely right that most of these shootings involve blacks both as shooters and targets.  Ironicly enough, just 5 minutes walk down the street from where this incident occured there's a bar which is often frequented by members of russian, chinese, and italian gangs; however, they've never been a problem.  But how exactly will acknowledging the race of the criminals help?

 

[Kat Stevens]

I always thought Toronto lost its innocence the day Harold Ballard bought the Leafs....

 

[Griswald DME]

I am too brain dead at the moment from writing my first draft on a major paper (worth 40% of my final mark) to consider if the comments are racist or not.  But to add a different slant, if you are saying new immigrants (I'm not slagging you, just saying if you are) then possibly Canada needs to consider if we welcome people into the country, we need to offer additional supports for these families.  Why are "their" kids in particular getting into more trouble than others?  I think this has to be dealt with in a non judgemental, non racist way, while at the same time taking into account cultural differences.  I would imagine if I was a young kid moving to a country where things were quite different, I'd not only be as scared as hell I'd be trying to fit in as well.  Comments?

DME

 

[Infanteer]

Toronto will never solve it's gang problem untill it, and certain communities.. own up and face some hard, uncomfortable truths.

What truths? Well. Well over 90% of "street gangs" are "non-white" That statement makes people uncomfortable.. but it is true.

Aren't ethnic gangs in many cases the street-level workers for the larger criminal organizations.  Sure, you typical organized crime ring (bikers, etc, etc) may do big deals off the street; but all that crack, weed and guns goes somewhere.

Be careful not to form an inaccurate picture by focusing soley on one part of a whole equation.

 

[nULL]

http://www.liberal.ca/news_e.aspx?id=1141

...sounds like a pretty good plan of attack to me, election rhetoric or not. As well, the gay marriage issue is dead - I believe our vaunted Conservative leader is the only one who wishes to see the issue resurrected.

 

[Roy Harding]

http://www.liberal.ca/news_e.aspx?id=1141

...sounds like a pretty good plan of attack to me, election rhetoric or not. As well, the gay marriage issue is dead - I believe our vaunted Conservative leader is the only one who wishes to see the issue resurrected.

You quote the Liberal Party of Canada website to support the Liberal Party of Canada's platform??

What's gay marriage got to do with "gun-related homicide at a record high in T.O."??

 

[Jarnhamar]

I don't see why their colour makes any difference. Who cares of their black kids working for white bosses or Chinese immigrants working for the Russians?

Their guilty, track em down and put them away. If they committed murder, well put them away for 99 years or put them to sleep.



Guest, what do you mean the cops don't want to upset the community? You mean the gang community or the blue and white collar types who would be inconvinced by roadside checks and what not.

 

[nULL]

Piper's last post agreed with that of another who complained that the former issue was taking up court space.

You quote the Liberal Party of Canada website to support the Liberal Party of Canada's platform??

Who else would I quote to do such a thing?

Your kidding....right?

I'm wearing my serious face. You, Piper, said that "the best the gov't will do about the gang problem in Toronto is to 'ban those evil handguns'." Step up big guy; what do you think the answer is? I'm at least happy to see that the issue is being acknowledged seriously and that a new approach is being offered. As to its feasability, I'm not sure - ask a cop if they would feel their job protecting the public would be easier were there a lack of deadly, easily concealed and readily available weapons amid the civlian populace? Personally, I'd feel better knowing that if someone wants to kill me, they're going to have to use a shovel.

The media is reporting that the Yonge street shooters were using handguns - not UZI's. But....both are EQUALLY available to gang banging street shits, right?  :

 

[Sh0rtbUs]

Aren't ethnic gangs in many cases the street-level workers for the larger criminal organizations.  Sure, you typical organized crime ring (bikers, etc, etc) may do big deals off the street; but all that crack, weed and guns goes somewhere.

Be careful not to form an inaccurate picture by focusing soley on one part of a whole equation.

I guess it would depend on which gangs we're talking about.

Theres a lot of "gangs" downtown that like to "bust slugs" and talk the talk, who turn out to be simple low level thugs. Whether this is the case for Jane & Finch type incidents, or a deeper routed issue is yet to be seen.

 

[NavComm]

http://www.liberal.ca/news_e.aspx?id=1141

...sounds like a pretty good plan of attack to me, election rhetoric or not. As well, the gay marriage issue is dead - I believe our vaunted Conservative leader is the only one who wishes to see the issue resurrected.

:brickwall:

From the link nULL provided:

This plan would include federal legislation that would enable provinces and territories to legally prohibit handguns within their borders. It would toughen penalties for gun crimes, help eliminate the supply of illegal handguns, and increase protection for communities across the country.

How do you think this would help eliminate the supply of illegal handguns? If the authorities haven't found all these illegal handguns by now, how will enacting more laws help with that?

IMO this entire plan is just another pile of BS like the gun registry. I personally don't own a gun, but the people I know that do are law abiding citizens, they aren't out shooting holiday bargain hunters on boxing day with registered weapons.

Why punish legitimate gun collectors and people who shoot for a hobby? Why not just start enforcing the laws we already have? Why not start supporting the police - the men and women who spend time taking these thugs off the street - by actually sentencing the criminals to the maximum sentence for the crime (as opposed to the minimum, then releasing them after serving 2/3 of their sentence).

The courts need to start upholding the laws we already have, adding more laws that aren't adhered to, doesn't make much sense IMO.

Maybe next time I'm in the downtown eastside of Vancouver, I'll ask a few criminal types if they think the 'new ban on handguns' will have any negative impact on their ability to obtain, use and keep handguns.  :rofl:

 

[Fishbone Jones]

As well, the gay marriage issue is dead - I believe our vaunted Conservative leader is the only one who wishes to see the issue resurrected.

Him and about 85% of the Canadians that make up the silent majority. Only a Communist would agree with the way it was crammed down our throats with a whipped vote.

 

[nULL]

Is it the same "silent majority" that wanted Canada to go to Iraq? The fact is, a democratically elected, legitimate government made a decision, which is what we put them into power to do....and that should be the end of it.

Pertaining to the proposed gun law, I don't see the harm in taking a new approach.

http://www.guncontrol.ca/Content/FirearmsMisuse.html

"The Metropolitan Toronto Police Service’s report on gun related crime found that in 1997, of the 2304 firearms seized by police, rifles and shotguns figured prominently at 41.7% while 52.8% were handguns, 1% machine guns, 0.5% machine pistols and 3.9% were unknown"

"Many of the firearms recovered in crime in Canada were at one time legally owned. Legally owned firearms, for example, figure prominently in domestic violence, suicide and impulsive acts."

(I'm aware of the bias of the source, but I think we can both agree to the importance of an organization such as this to err on the side of accuracy in reporting statistics.)

The last time I was discussing this issue with people in my mess, I kept being told how "easy" it was to aquire a handgun. However, upon further questioning, it became apparent that none of them had connections with international smugglers; their plan was hitched on either stealing or buying a weapon from someone who had one - presumably legally.

This isn't a quick fix, it's an investment. Will it prevent crime, certainly not - will it at the very least make it more difficult, inconvenient, and risky for criminals to use/possess handguns? Certainly - and that's worth a shot. 

 

[GO!!!]

I don't see why their colour makes any difference. Who cares of their black kids working for white bosses or Chinese immigrants working for the Russians?

Their guilty, track em down and put them away. If they committed murder, well put them away for 99 years or put them to sleep.

Guest, what do you mean the cops don't want to upset the community? You mean the gang community or the blue and white collar types who would be inconvinced by roadside checks and what not.

It matters what color they are because racial profiling works. Here in Edmonton, where blacks are relatively rare, Asian gangs have filled the niche, shooting, stabbing and running each other over on a regular (though not as often as TO) basis.

There is a paralell thread on the merits of capital punishment and life improsonment, leave it there.

Check stops for blue and white collar people of any other color are useless. Nearly every one of these crimes has been perpetrated by a young black man, living in one of a handful of neighborhoods. Cops slowing traffic in Rosedale or Yorkville will solve nothing.

I would advocate checkstops for anyone wearing a backwards hat, Lugs, Do - Rags, FUBU, Sean John or XXXXXXXXXXXL Nike Basketball jersies first. This would find the guns, and their bearers, and get both into a cell with Bruce, where they belong.

 

[48Highlander]

I would advocate checkstops for anyone wearing a backwards hat, Lugs, Do - Rags, FUBU, Sean John or XXXXXXXXXXXL Nike Basketball jersies first. This would find the guns, and their bearers, and get both into a cell with Bruce, where they belong.

I guess you haven't been to Toronto for a while....this plan would include about half of the current population.

 

[Guest]

The Majority of the VERY public shootings in Toronto have been drug/gang related. The MAJORITY of these incidents involved persons who would be considered "non-white" in appearence.


BTW.. an increasing number of these shootings, invloved persons who were "just pissed off at somebody" IE: The TTC Bus shooting.

Again, they we'rnt Kids from Woodbridge either.

As far as thier "communities" are concerned.. cops are the enemy.. we are racists.. we UNFAIRLY target their youth.

We KNOW who the ""bad guys" are.. we can't touch them, thanks to lawyers.

All the cops on this board know EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

We can't even pull over the Navigator SUV with 6"persons of interest" (Owning a $50,000 vehicle in an Ontario Housing apt building should be reason enough for concern)

If we did.. we'd be sued for harrasment.. demoted ect..

Don't think we don't know who the street criminals are.. we just can't do a thing about it.. untill it's too late.

BTW, if It's 6 white kids in Etobicoke.. we can stop em anytime we want.. nobody will cry "racism"

These are real world facts of life.

What do you think would happen if crime/race stats were made public???

 

[TCBF]

It sounds to me as if you guys are more worried about your pensions than you are about doing your jobs.

Look what Chief Herman did in Thunder Bay - his Dept Int guys made the connection between bad drivers, car thieves, and bad guys in general (white or native) and they got in their back pockets.  Figure out where the crime nodes are, and be there when the predictables screw up.  You trying to tell me these apes don't do running stops at stop signs or have their seatbelts undone?  That they don't jaywalk?

Get on them, and get a Police Association with some balls to stand up for you while you are at it, instead of pro Gun Registry toadies who wouldn't say sh_t if their mouths were full of it.

Get the Association to collect crime stats and announce them.

If you guys have the nuts to protest on your day off while carrying sidearms - a violation of the police act, then you should have what it takes to tell the truth about who really is doing all the crime.

Tom

 

[TCBF]

No it is not worth a shot. You would limit the rights of millions of people to defend themselves with handguns just so a criminal will find it slightly more difficult to acquire one?  Ridiculous.

Oh, and by the way, suicide is means independant.

So, how about registering criminals instead of guns?

And how about reading the various gun control threads on this site to learn a bit about the issue?

Tom

 

[nULL]

I have read many of the threads, I'm simply adding my thoughts pertaining to the latest incident of gun violence in our largest city.

You would limit the rights of millions of people to defend themselves with handguns just so a criminal will find it slightly more difficult to acquire one?

At the off chance that instead lives are saved by said parties finding it difficult to aquire handguns - yes;  I will lose no sleep over the inability of millions to enjoy their favourite hobby. 

 

[48Highlander]

This isn't a quick fix, it's an investment. Will it prevent crime, certainly not - will it at the very least make it more difficult, inconvenient, and risky for criminals to use/possess handguns? Certainly - and that's worth a shot. 

Eh?  Can you please explain how exactly this will make it "more difficult, inconvinient, and risky" for criminals to have guns?

You're suggesting that someone who has no problem with blasting away on a crowded street is going to be intimidated or inconvinienced by.....what exactly?  The Liberals saying that guns are illegal?  :clown:

"Give me all your money!"

"Hey, didn't you hear?  Paul Martin says your handgun is illegal!"

"Oh, shit!  Man, I don't wanna go to jail!  Please, don't tell the Liberals about this!"

 

[GO!!!]

quote author=nULL link=topic=37051/post-313983#msg313983 date=1135738093]
At the off chance that instead lives are saved by said parties finding it difficult to aquire handguns - yes;  I will lose no sleep over the inability of millions to enjoy their favourite hobby. 
[/quote]

With the exception of the most recent incident in TO, most gun violence seems restricted to the criminal underclass, both perpetrators and their victims.

I suppose you also support a society that bans other potentially dangerous hobbies, powerful automobiles, model rocketry, martial arts etc. Perhaps the government should shield us from all possible sources of harm, so that only those who have no regard for the law can pracitce those activities that violate it.

The POS who are shooting people are already aware that murder is illegal, concealed weapons are illegal, that using a gun in the commission of an offence is illegal, etc. Why legislate against the law abiding citizen when the law breaking one already operates with impunity?