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Guns, Gangs and Toronto

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whiskey601 said:
Well: he certainly sucked in here London and now his little CYA micro-managing protege is in charge here. He had his inspectors in YRP  threaten his own men with lawsuits to protect his rep, but that's a story I'll save for a get together crushing cans.

Whiskey, 
Being on the YRP know a lot of that lawsuit info was blown out of proportion IMHO.  Putting aside Fantino's mega plan to get closer to his TPS endstate he did do some good things for York that outweighed his autocratic style.  We had a dark cloud history with another chief in our past.  So he was golden when he arrived.  You are right he was able to be a copper's copper.  The greatest thing I respect him for was causing mass panick among some senior officers to start kitting up when the left their office and being ordered to drop by a T-stop if it was on their way.  I'm sure a few had orange guns when they came out of their drawers.  I think maybe the biggest hit against him from the frontline was his mandatory hat policy. (not a big deal in the scheme of things)

The reality is that any chief is longer a LEO but an administrator and a politician.  Only rose coloured glasses would suggest otherwise.

Zipperheadcop,

Kudos to your comments on the existence of legislation vs sentencing.  Now if only they made judicial accountability an election issue??
 
CBH 99,

While I agree with some of what you are saying, the situations in Calgary and Edmonton vs TO are like night and day. Calgary and Edmonton have small, quiet visible minority populations. They are the exception, not the rule, and when their proprietary gangs step out of line, they are far more easily found and watched until they make an illegal rolling stop, and are pulled over. In Edmonton, Mill Woods and the area of 97th and 104th are really the only areas for the Asian/Lebanese/Native etc. gangs.

The EPS put a damper on crime in the north east by putting a large detachment smack dab in the middle of it - officers serve some people with warrants and walk them back to the building!

TO is a little bit of a different story, because the population is so much bigger, and the pool of support for the police seems to be smaller, as a proportion as well. Edmonton has a similar problem with an activist police commission, filled with lawyers and social activists, each intent on making a name for themselves in order to (I think) run for public office later on. The EPS, by and large, have risen above these parasites, and arrested those who need arresting, shot those who need shooting, and policed the city rather well, despite being consistently undermined by the police comission. Crime has fallen here, while TO is experiencing murder statistics similar to a US city of the same size.

Cops walking a picket line is not "unprofessional garbage" as you so eloquently put it. If the police officers who put their lives on the line cannot get a decent wage and benefits, they will not retain or attract the best talent, they will be left with the dregs, as the best and brightest move on to greener pastures.

In sum, Calgary is able to get a grip on gangs because they are a small segment of a population, and they have the full support of the public, who is, by and large, white and supportive of aggressive policing. People here laugh when some POS who is "known to police" or "has gang connections" is blasted by the EPS, or a rival, while in TO they want to crucify the officer for doing his job and screaming "racism" if the dead guy is any color but bright white. The police cannot do their job with (public support) without a homogenous population.

 
PIKER said:
   I think maybe the biggest hit against him from the frontline was his mandatory hat policy. (not a big deal in the scheme of things)

LOL- OMG I had forgotten about that!!
 
I agree with some of the things you mentioned in your post GO!! - but there are some things I have to respectfully disagree with.

-  Police officers walking a picket line, demanding better wages and/or working conditions should NOT be allowed at all.  People look to the police for help on an everyday basis, from situations ranging from small-damage fender benders, to hostage situations.  On a day to day basis, police officers must be out on the street, enforcing the various laws that society lives by - especially those laws that people seem to view as more relevent than others.  (By this, I'm referring to the laws that people think of off the top of their head; I'm not saying some laws are actually more relevent than others.)  When the police officers the public looks to for help, support, and leadership walk a picket line holding up signs and wearing union baseball caps, it dramatically reduces the confidence the public has in their police service.
  Although I do agree that if the situation is bad enough, police officers may feel compelled to act boldly in order for their message to be heard, I do not believe walking a picket line is the answer.  I'm in the process of applying to various police sevices, as I just finished my degree in Criminology - and Toronto was on my list, and may be again in the future.  However, as a paramedic/TEMS officer, and an aspiring police officer, I found the tactic of walking a picket line to be unprofessional, and somewhat of a 'turn off' in regards to which departments to apply to.

In Calgary, the CPS experienced a similar problem.  The police commission's response was the "Back The Blue" campaign, which was a huge success.  Rather than walking a picket line and refusing to perform certain functions, the Calgary Police Service functioned as usual.  They sold bumper stickers at various police stations and at the police booth in the local malls to help raise funds for the campaign.  The service the police provided was not interrupted, nor was there any public spectacle of a picket line.  A few politicians whined, and said that the police were more likely to let someone off with a warning if they had a "Back The Blue" sticker on their bumper, which I think is probably true, but I believe the tactic was much more professional than the action taking in TO.  It was bold, the message was very public, yet it was still professional.  At the end of the campaign, the police service temporarily stopped performing radar enforcement - a tactic which threatened city coffers.  Eventually, a deal was made.

In terms of gang violence in Toronto, perhaps your right.  The demographics are much different there than they are in either Calgary or Edmonton, not to mention the huge population increase.  However, dealing with gang warfare I don't think differs all that much.  Gather as much intelligence as possible  (Which may be more difficult in TO, due to the public's apparent apathy towards their police officers) -- and act on that intelligence.  Follow them around, search them for anything, watch for anything even slightly illegal to clear the officer to 'approach them, and question them'  (Whoever said anything about harassment?)  Certain members of the public might cry racism, or police harassment, but I'm sure they'll shut right the f**k up if the person happens to have a firearm, or narcotics on them.  Wouldn't you think?

Anyhow, to sum it up - I do agree with various parts of your post.  However, on some parts I do have to disagree.  Although I am not a police officer, I work closely with the CPS and have a lot of experience in dealing with law enforcement.  I don't think walking a picket line was the most professional way to convey a message, nor do I think it fulfilled its purpose nearly as effectively as a campaign similar to what the CPS did would have.

Cheers
 
Wils21 said:
Call in army, pastor pleads

That would be one heck of an OP HARVEST!

I honestly think that the Toronto situation is being blown out of proportion.  Welcome to North America - the crime and murder in Toronto is only about a quarter of what it is in places like Chicago (there was a stat on CBC last night).  As Toronto becomes larger and larger, we're going to see more of this.
 
kcdist said:
Tsk....

You people and all your crime fighting rhetoric.

Just build community centres on every street corner, ban all the guns, and crime will dissapear overnight.

We ALL share responsability for Toronto's woes because we are not practicing the politics of inclusively nearly enough. Shame on us.

Is this another lame attempt at sarcasm?
 
Golly, kincanucks, what do YOU think. ::)

Fact is though, this is the viewpoint of a great many politicians and a great many Torontonians. So to spell it out for you, it was a statement mocking beliefs that appear to be held by a majority in Toronto.

As a society, we have practised this approach to crime far too long, for example:

-Major expose in the Toronto Star about police profiling while a major crime wave was unfolding (Something like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic).

-Political talk about the need for inclusivity in perhaps what is the most inclusive city in the world.

-Alternative sentencing such as conditional sentences for major crime.

-The infamous Liberal promise of a handgun ban, which would of course remove financial resources otherwise available for crime fighting. 

If something good can come of this incident, perhaps it will be a wake up call to the citizens of Toronto. Perhaps they will come to realize that if they continue to vote Liberal, it will only get worse.

 
Well here is loss of innocence,

The wife, my wee two kids, and myself, went up to the Roger Video at the Malvern Town centre (it's one block away from me, yep I live in "Malvern" oooh)....

My wife was the one that caught it and had to drive the van around so I Could roll down the window to see.

A Car was running, nothing fancy about it either, Chrysler I think, but it was what we saw..

Two bumper stickers...One said "I (Heart) Boxers" and the other...

This Car is unlocked, and the Keys are in the ignition...Right Beside the boxer in the front seat!

Here was the clincher  the car was running, the doors unlocked (you could see the tabs up), the keys were obviously in the ignition, and the most beautiful, and very big, boxer was sitting in the front seat eyeballing us as we drove by!!!

God bless the average chap that snubs the reputation of a community...

hehehe

dileas

tess
 
redleafjumper said:
and while there are calls for more knife control in some circles (and yes, there is knife control in Canada by order in council)

Are you referring to the guidelines for knives that are prohibited weapons ie) switchblades, butterfly knives, kubotans with blades?  Other than the prohibited ones, knives are pretty much unregulated.

If anyone wants to go off on a wild knife tangent:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=735
They loves their knives!
 
CBH99 said:
Anyhow, to sum it up - I do agree with various parts of your post.  However, on some parts I do have to disagree.  Although I am not a police officer, I work closely with the CPS and have a lot of experience in dealing with law enforcement.  I don't think walking a picket line was the most professional way to convey a message, nor do I think it fulfilled its purpose nearly as effectively as a campaign similar to what the CPS did would have.
I bet you watch all of the CSI and Law and Order shows, and tape America's Most Wanted too, right?
Please come off as a misinformed know it all in your subsequent interviews so you will see the success in Policing that you deserve. 
NO ONE has a right to pass judgement on the Toronto Police Service members.  Those people have been fighting a brutal demoralizing war of politics for about 15 years.  They get no support from their counsel or Police Services Board and little from the people. 
I have seen several posts with a "bash on do what you need to" spirit and I wish that was the case.  CBH99 made some comments to "GUEST" to that effect.  I also like to pursue what is commonly referred to as "the Ways and Means Act" which is basically "get the job done at any cost".  The problem with that is when it gets to court and the liberal judges start looking at the case, it gets tossed and the criminal gets a shot at some free civil suit money.  Look at the poor guys in Toronto who got pinned for the "driving while black" case:
http://www.kingstonelectors.ca/forums/archive/index.php/t-808.html
That was a bunch of crap, and you can bet every time for the rest of their careers that when one of them has a vis-min under arrest and in court, this will come up.
Also:  "You should also know that it really doesn't matter if the politicians back you up, nor your own police board.  Its whether the public supports your decisions or not. "  is a lovely sentiment, CBH99, but as many of these posts highlight, what the public thinks doesn't mean dick in the legal world.

95% of us out there, if freed up of all political constraints, would go out and tear our cities a$$hats new holes all over.  The mad blue hordes!  In reality we have regs out the ass that we have to deal with.  I am lucky in that Windsor is not so very hamstrung with the PC rules that Toronto does. 
As far as profiling goes, it is not racial profiling that is needed.  I maintain that sh_theads are translucent and take on whatever colour that they end up in.  CRIMINAL profiling is what we do, and there is no way to quantify it.  It comes as a result of training, experience and paying attention to patterns.  Some might call it "instinct", but it is learned.  Street level criminals all tend to act the same way, regardless of what colour they are.  It is this drawing of attention that gets Police to check them out. 

It would be nice if we could get some of those good, common sense values that are apparently still out there in Alberta to infect Ontario.  Send it east, because BC is a write off.

By the way, if anyone wants to see the face of the person who this thread is about...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/cpress/20051228/ca_pr_on_na/toronto_shootings
 
Sadly, the problems that led to this incident and the recent slew of gun homicides aren't new in Toronto. The criminal lifestyle involving mainly Jamaican males was brewing in the Jane-Finch area of northwest Toronto back in the early 1970's when I joined the Militia. My first section commander was a PC with the Metropolitan Toronto Police, stationed in the division that covered the Jane-Finch area. He told me that even in those days, they did not respond to a call in that area with anything less than two cars. I heard later that the North York Fire Dept would not dismount from their trucks in that area without the police being there first. I though at thev time that these were bizarre things that only happened in big bad US cities.

Accusations of racism from the Jamaican community against the Toronto Police are not new either: the police killing of Albert Johnston, a mentally disturbed black man wielding a knife, provoked an outburst that included a march on the local police station by the black community: that event happened in the 1970s. My section commander was himself eventually charged in connection with another police shooting of a black male, also surrounded with controversy. And the unusually high levels of criminality and violence have been noted in that area for decades (and in the last few years in the Scarborough area of eastern Toronto). I don't know if anybody, on any side, really did much to fix things. Like many social problems, I think it was left to the police to respond to and sort out.

So, I have to be a bit skeptical about this "loss of innocence" comment: in Toronto's case it is years too late IMHO.  I also have no patience with the politicians who are blaming this on the availability of guns in Toronto: if that were the sole cause then I suggest that all criminal elements in Toronto would be slaughtering each other in the streets. This is not happening: the huge majority of the firearms homicides in Toronto this year (if not all of them...) have been in the black Caribbean community. Following the recent outrageous shooting that took place at a funeral of yet another young black man shot by others, Caribbean black community leaders spoke out. Surprisingly, but positively, they admitted that their community was responsible for most of these gun killings. Even more surprisingly, amongst many other changes and reforms, they called for the collection of race-based crime statistics by Toronto police in order to get a better grip on the full scope of the problem facing their community. Considering how much grief that idea caused Julian Fantino, the previous Chief of the Toronto Police, it was amazing to read about this particular demand. Around the same time, I also caught a Toronto radio show that is directed at the Carribean community. The host, while agreeing that he and his people faced issues of racism from "the powers that be" in Toronto, also told his listeners that it was high time the community admitted that they had too many young men with no respect for themselves, respect for women, or for any kind of authority. He identified the need to raise these young men in a better way, with better self respect. Interestingly, he stated that he would not take the normal phone-in responses right away: he felt that the subject would make too many community members too angry. In other words, he knew he had touched a sore nerve. He was reminding his community that is false to just blame everything on "racism", as much as that can be a part of the problem. Perhaps it is natural, and certainly more comforting, to think that your problems are not of your own making and that fixing them is somebody else's job.

Is there racism in the TPS? Yes, some-it is inevitable in a police force that large. A recent highly pubicized incident in which a police officer pulled over a carful of young blacks reinforced this impression: when asked for his badge number he replied " my badge is 666". Unfortunately this stupid response was recorded by one of the passengers with a cellphone. Is this constable in a minority? Almost certainly. As well, not to defend racists, but when police are constantly arresting the same people in the same communities, know of the existence of much more crime than they can apprehend, and can sense the attitude of the neighbourhood towards them when nobody comes forward to speak about what everybody saw, it is inevitable that some police will put the problem down to race, instead of to culture which IMHO is where it belongs.

When I say culture as opposed to race, I mean that these killings do not appear to involve all blacks, nor are they because the perpetrators or victims are black: people who have immigrated from Africa (for example) seem to be conspicuously absent from these incidents. My experience with Somalis and Ethiopians in Winnipeg through the ESL program where I volunteered downtown was that they are mostly like all other immigrants to Canada, they want to work hard and get on with life. Most do. Instead, the swamp that breeds these gangsta idiots in Toronto is a sub-culture that is marked by father absent homes, low education levels, poor or nonexistent job skills, a glorification of "guns, cars, drugs, clothes, bling and ho's", homage to the powerful violent male as a leader figure, and a rejection of much of what normal productive people in civil society aspire to.  And, as far as I can tell, this particular problem has been centred in Toronto's Jamaican community for a long time. Is it all Jamaicans, or even a majority? I'm not sure, but I doubt it very much. But it is certainly enough of a percentage to cause their own community leaders to be finally galvanized into public action, whatever they may have attempted to do internally over the years. While other immigrant communities in Canada have "done their time" and graduated up to suburban houses in Markham, Mississauga and Oakville, and successfully entered business, government and education, IMHO this community has found itself largely left behind and living in less than desireable areas: no doubt this has contributed to the outlook of the young criminals who see gang membership and the use of terror as the only means to achieve status and respect.

IMHO these killings and this sick gang culture will only end when the young men in this community don't have any more desire to indulge. As long as the gangsta culture is glorified, the police are depicted as the enemy, all of a community's failings are reflexively blamed on outsiders, and trying to get ahead through decent hard work is viewed as a fool's game, then the ranks of these gangs will be full, and the killings will continue. The police by themselves, or stricter sentences by themselves, will only deal with symptoms, and even then probably only after the fact. They are even less effective against anti-social young men who do not fear arrest or jail, and who may be actually be looking for a showdown with the police. The police cannot abandon the streets, but I don't think they can win them back on their own either. The solution must come from within.

Cheers
 
What I would like to comment on is what I have heard repeatedly on the radio and television interviews of social pundits based out of the GTA. They continue to espouse that these groups represent "marginalized" and "disenfranchised" members of the population.

I was under the impression that Canada was a multicultural community where all cultures were celebrated and valued for their contribution to the Canadian identity.

If this is the case, than how can the same champions of this vision then state that these criminals are marginalized? Has the concept of personal responsibility and accountability been completely obliterated in Canada?

Shhhhhhhhh. Speak quietly, or you might offend the criminals.
 
zipperhead_cop said:
  Look at the poor guys in Toronto who got pinned for the "driving while black" case: http://www.kingstonelectors.ca/forums/archive/index.php/t-808.html

I'm still at a loss on this one.

If I was pulled over by the EPS with 45g of Coke, would I be able to defend myself with "driving while Scottish" comments?

The article does say that the Cops lied about the location of the drugs though.....
 
Yes, the knife prohibitions are exactly what I was referring to.  The OiC's also, by description, include the Inuit ulu knife.
 
Dont tell that to these guys:
http://www.ulu.com/

You'll be able to hear the hearts breaking :crybaby:
 
pbi said:
Is there racism in the TPS? Yes, some-it is inevitable in a police force that large. A recent highly publicized incident in which a police officer pulled over a car full of young blacks reinforced this impression: when asked for his badge number he replied " my badge is 666". Unfortunately this stupid response was recorded by one of the passengers with a cellphone. Is this constable in a minority? Almost certainly. As well, not to defend racists, but when police are constantly arresting the same people in the same communities, know of the existence of much more crime than they can apprehend, and can sense the attitude of the neighbourhood towards them when nobody comes forward to speak about what everybody saw, it is inevitable that some police will put the problem down to race, instead of to culture which IMHO is where it belongs.

Just as an exercise for the next couple of days, when you are behind a car driving (try this day or night) ask yourself what the race of the person driving is.  Then try it with cars with limo tint windows.  Then try it with dark tinted SUV'S.  It is damn near impossible to know what you are pulling over until you start to walk up.  Any of us out there should be thinking in terms of always being on camera or being recorded and that was a dumb thing to say. 
I fail to see how it was a racist comment?  Is the number of the anti-Christ somehow a slam on a non white person?  That is a bit of dogma that I missed in Sunday school.  Closer to the mark is that the kids in the car were being uncooperative and smart a$$es and the officer was being a smart a$$ back.  Not a good idea, but I can see it happening.  But it is that sort of crap that the TPS is up against.  If the officer needed to be spoken to (the Police Services Act requires us to provide our badge number on request) then treat it as such.  All of a sudden, some dink is crying "racism" and everyone goes "oh, they were black, it must have been race".  In a normal city that crap would get no steam and die almost straight out.  But in Toronto, they eat that crap up and go nuts.  There is always going to be some seditious prick that needs to create problems by throwing out the race card at  target.  Look at how the race card got tossed out for the New Orleans mess.  A bunch of tools fail to leave when directed, shoot at the relief workers that show up, then bitch that they would have gotten better treatment if it was white people under water. 
And trust me-not being interested in helping people who don't want to cooperate is not monopolized by the black community in Toronto.  There are plenty of "no service" areas all over Canada.  What the Jamaican community did is make a lot of noise (thank you Dudley Laws) and cause people to have a false perception of police and the black community.  Any time you put up with some groups wailing and thrashing, you give them power, and power is intoxicating.  That is what these gangs have; power.  Power to intimidate, power to not need to conform to any other society than their own.  The citizens of Toronto for many years, by not supporting their police and entertaining this bulls_it made a decision and said "we value the right of gang members to traffic drugs and get into shoot outs rather than put aside our collective 'white guilt' and apply a bit of common sense".  So then you get your FIDO calls and the police start to shut down and close ranks.  It's a sound military tactic-when you don't know where you're enemy is coming from, set up an all round defensive. 
It is encouraging that someone is starting to try to put the accountability back onto the people who need to accept it.  Unfortunately it may be too little, too late.
 
GO!!! said:
I'm still at a loss on this one.

If I was pulled over by the EPS with 45g of Coke, would I be able to defend myself with "driving while Scottish" comments?

The article does say that the Cops lied about the location of the drugs though.....
The bad guy said he had no idea that there were drugs in the car.  If that was the case, how could he say that they lied about the drugs location?
And "driving while Scottish" is only a defense to an impaired driving charge. ;D
 
TCBF, be careful of the comments about simply wanting to protect our pensions.

I'm not defending Guests comments (I don't agree with a lot of it), but that being said, I don't think it's fair to say things like that until you have walked a mile in a cop's shoes.  I can't think of another job in the World where you are as highly scrutinized as a Police officer is.  If you aren't getting it from a member of the public (who are largely ignorant of what our training and powers of arrest etc are..), you are getting it from your suspect.  Or your complainant for not coming out with the response to their problem that they wanted.  Or your supervisors for being behind in an investigation when you have 40 - 50 SUI files backed up, and more being piled on everyday.  It's a tough job.  End rant.

That being said, there is nothing wrong with pulling over suspects that you feel are suspicious.  So long as you can articulate your reasons for the legal stop.  I find that you average member coming out of training very rapidly loses the basics, and has trouble articulating their actions.  A Police Officer must be able to take the stand, and articulate to the courts "Yes, your Honour, I had arrested the suspect for assault with a weapon.  I searched the subject incidental to arrest, for items related to the offence.  While doing so, I came across a firearm in the small of his back."  That search would stand up in court.  While maybe not looking for a gun (a knife or items used in the assault), the illegally possessed items was found while conducting a lawful search.  Articulation, articulation, articulation.
 
Zipperhead_Cop:

I definitely don't know even close to everything, and I don't mean to come off that way.  And I understand that the political situation in regards to the TPS is much, much different than working here in Calgary.  Our leaders, both in the commission and politically, back us up 100%, and we are very fortunate for that.  Perhaps I am underestimating just how bad and deep the various issues are in regards to the TPS, but I still don't believe a picket line is appropriate.  As I said though, perhaps I am unaware of just how bold a move was required by the TPS in order to have their message heard;  I don't personally know any TPS officers.  However, when we heard of the picket line here in Calgary, the general consensus was "Wow, that would never happen here".

BTW, I hate CSI.
 
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