Guns, Gangs and Toronto
- Thread starter Jonny Boy
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48Highlander said:
Well, if handguns are hard to GET, then, following that same line of thinking, they are hard to USE - illegally.
http://www.liberal.ca/news_e.aspx?id=1141
Of note:
"Toughening penalties by re-introducing legislation to crack down on violent crimes and gang violence, by doubling the mandatory minimum sentences for key gun crimes."
Not at all - but the day an innocent pedestrian is hit and killed by gangs engaged in model rocketry warfare, we'll open a new thread.
Your last sentence will make an interesting thesis for next semester though - I like it!
To make it difficult for them to turn legally purchased weapons into illegal tools of death and mayhem. Can't abuse it if you can't use it right?
As to Infanteer's comment, well - security should be left to those that practise it as a profession; all I expect from my neighbours are that they keep it quiet after 2:00am.
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nULL said:
You mean the way the prohibition stopped alcohol consumption?
Or the way the war on drugs stopped drug use?
Or maybe the way anti-piracy laws have stopped people from copying music and movies?
Or the way our anti-prostitution laws have stopped prostitution?
Do you get the point yet, or should I keep going?
The only thing that criminalizing a substance, object, or act does is to increase street value and involve the criminal element. That's it. Anyone who has any interest in it can buy a gun, smoke some crack, and pay for a blowjob.
So imagine for a second that guns become "illegal". What's going to happen? All the criminals will pack up and close shop? Or do you suppose it's more likely they'll simply increase their efforts to smuggle in weapons from elsewhere? It's a simple matter of supply and demand. As long as there's a demand, the market will find a way to supply it. Even when enforcement efforts ARE succesfull in decreasing the supply and increasing the risk to criminals, the result has traditionaly been MORE violence rather than less. Any time you skew the market so that demand vastly exceeds supply, you create a much greater margin of profit. And the greater the margin of profit, the more people there are willing to commit murder in order to capitalize on it. Think about it, if a baggy of crack goes for $10, who's going to kill someone over it? On the other hand, when the price shoots up to $10,000 because the supply has shrunk, it suddenly becomes a lot more lucrative to kill your dealer instead of paying him. Same principle goes for any black-market items, including guns.
nULL said:
That's the only part that makes sense.
"At the off chance that instead lives are saved by said parties finding it difficult to aquire handguns - yes; I will lose no sleep over the inability of millions to enjoy their favourite hobby."
- I did NOT say hobby, I said:
'No it is not worth a shot. You would limit the rights of millions of people to defend themselves with handguns just so a criminal will find it slightly more difficult to acquire one? Ridiculous.'
The operative word is DEFEND. You are willing to sacrifice the lives innocent homeowners to save the life of one home invader? Is this some sort of wealth re-distribution plan for the disadvantaged and oppressed inner city gangstaz? Kindly get your brain housing unit into the sunlight.
Tom
- I did NOT say hobby, I said:
'No it is not worth a shot. You would limit the rights of millions of people to defend themselves with handguns just so a criminal will find it slightly more difficult to acquire one? Ridiculous.'
The operative word is DEFEND. You are willing to sacrifice the lives innocent homeowners to save the life of one home invader? Is this some sort of wealth re-distribution plan for the disadvantaged and oppressed inner city gangstaz? Kindly get your brain housing unit into the sunlight.
Tom
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There are plenty of laws that make handguns unlawful without the proper documentation and permits. There are plenty of harsh penalties for possession, use, pointing. What is lacking is the sentencing from the judges.
Any of you who are legit handgun owners known how much aggravation it is to maintain. The expense, training, club involvement etc all takes cash. If you have that kind of cash and motivation, chances are you are educated with a job, which is not the general criminal profile.
If we want to throw cash at this, then beef up the borders and stop the illegal guns from the source.
Any of you who are legit handgun owners known how much aggravation it is to maintain. The expense, training, club involvement etc all takes cash. If you have that kind of cash and motivation, chances are you are educated with a job, which is not the general criminal profile.
If we want to throw cash at this, then beef up the borders and stop the illegal guns from the source.
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zipperhead_cop said:
Well: he certainly sucked in here London and now his little CYA micro-managing protege is in charge here. He had his inspectors in YRP threaten his own men with lawsuits to protect his rep, but that's a story I'll save for a get together crushing cans.
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The problem being mentioned isn't that the "gangs" are made up of blacks or other ethnic minorities, but that their home communities are not actively assisting the police in driving them out. In many instances, I have seen news reports where there was a shooting at an "after hours" club full of people, yet not one witness would step forward to assist the police. The so called community leaders are not any better, actively opposing policing of their neighbourhoods and making accusations against the police.
TCBF is simply stating a truth which the New York Police Department used to break the crime wave in the 1980s and 90s; get all available officers onto the street (away from the desk and out of the cars), flood troubled neighbourhoods and crack down on any and all crime. Often the jay walker or tresspasser also had a firearm or drugs, which led to information about other criminal activity (simply putting together a picture of who was doing what and establishing connections worked wonders). We do similar things on deployments, only the gangs are working for warlords and crime bosses in Bosnia or Afghanistan, so the principles are similar (even if the end results are different).
TCBF is simply stating a truth which the New York Police Department used to break the crime wave in the 1980s and 90s; get all available officers onto the street (away from the desk and out of the cars), flood troubled neighbourhoods and crack down on any and all crime. Often the jay walker or tresspasser also had a firearm or drugs, which led to information about other criminal activity (simply putting together a picture of who was doing what and establishing connections worked wonders). We do similar things on deployments, only the gangs are working for warlords and crime bosses in Bosnia or Afghanistan, so the principles are similar (even if the end results are different).
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whiskey601 said:
You serious? We were actually pretty happy with him in Toronto. There was a pretty big fuss when he was "retired"; the general consensus seemes to be that it was entirely due to politics.
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48Highlander said:
Thats because Metro was the only place he ever wanted to be Chief. London was not his first choice, and I do believe the man went back to Toronto at every and any opportunity that presented itself and most defintiely kept himself in the political-social loop there.
LOL- IIRC he (or one of his minions) once had a small scale investigtion conducted to try and determine who threw a Timmie's cup into his underground parking space at 601 D.
We found him to be all style and no substance, and for taxpayers he was an expensive man to have around- and perhaps that is his lasting legacy for the LPS at every city council budget meeting since he left. He "modernized" the LPS by trying to model it on Metro- a model that does not quite fit the city.
Anyway, water under the bridge, he's long gone. I will say one thing for him - the man went from auxilary to Chief of the largest city police force in Canada, and he did so with bare knuckles and a penchant for never forgetting who his enemies (and friends) were. He certainly never put up with shit from the police associations when they were clearly in the wrong, and the associations clearly [and thankfully] were not succesful in attempting to intimidate him. He could always put himself in the position of the average constable on any issue before him- perhaps thats why so many were happy with him.
Cheers.
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nULL, have you ever purchased a firearm, let alone a handgun? Do you know what the existing storage and transport laws are?
If you have and you do, you wouldn't be running at the mouth about how easy it is to get a handgun.
Sure, someone can get a heater on the street, but that is already banned, isn't it?
If you have and you do, you wouldn't be running at the mouth about how easy it is to get a handgun.
Sure, someone can get a heater on the street, but that is already banned, isn't it?
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Banning legally owned firearms is a sure way to increase the crime rate, especially property crimes but also crimes against people. There are numerous references available as to the increase in crime in the UK, Australia, and other jurisdictions where such nonsense has been foisted on those who obey the law. What the hoplophobes never seem to "get" is the simple fact that those who want firearms for nefarious purposes can always get them. Firearms are not complex technology and neither is the ammunition to make them work - it's simple, you need a projectile, a propellant, some form of initiator (primer), a tube and a receiver to hold the tube and voila, you have a firearm.
What happened to that young girl in Toronto was despicable. But there is no way that banning any firearm or its use would have prevented that death, or would prevent the next such act. Funny thing is that at nearly the same time a cabby was stabbed to death with a knife, and while there are calls for more knife control in some circles (and yes, there is knife control in Canada by order in council) no one really takes them as seriously in this country as they are taken in the UK. Others have made reference to the resounding failure of bans generally so there is no need to take much more time on that issue. Suffice it to say that banning something often has the reverse of the desired effect, that is that the item becomes more attractive as a status symbol. It certainly happened with prohibition of alcohol and it has certainly happened with handgun restrictions.
Perhaps if there were more, not fewer, shooting clubs where young people learned about firearms at a young age and developed the proper respect for such things along with empathy for people then we wouldn't have such trouble. Restoring the shooting programme to the cadet movement would be a good step, as would restoring the old school target ranges and building up the old DCRA postal matches.
What would solve the so-called gun problem in this country is more legal access to firearms, increased access to social and youth programmes to keep kids out of gangs and some basic enforcement of existing laws coupled with fair punishment for criminal activity.
(edited to improve word choice)
What happened to that young girl in Toronto was despicable. But there is no way that banning any firearm or its use would have prevented that death, or would prevent the next such act. Funny thing is that at nearly the same time a cabby was stabbed to death with a knife, and while there are calls for more knife control in some circles (and yes, there is knife control in Canada by order in council) no one really takes them as seriously in this country as they are taken in the UK. Others have made reference to the resounding failure of bans generally so there is no need to take much more time on that issue. Suffice it to say that banning something often has the reverse of the desired effect, that is that the item becomes more attractive as a status symbol. It certainly happened with prohibition of alcohol and it has certainly happened with handgun restrictions.
Perhaps if there were more, not fewer, shooting clubs where young people learned about firearms at a young age and developed the proper respect for such things along with empathy for people then we wouldn't have such trouble. Restoring the shooting programme to the cadet movement would be a good step, as would restoring the old school target ranges and building up the old DCRA postal matches.
What would solve the so-called gun problem in this country is more legal access to firearms, increased access to social and youth programmes to keep kids out of gangs and some basic enforcement of existing laws coupled with fair punishment for criminal activity.
(edited to improve word choice)
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Wed, December 28, 2005
Call in army, pastor pleads
By TOM GODFREY, TORONTO SUN
We've heard lots of talk from politicians about violent crime, but where's the action? Criminals need to fear consequences
An Etobicoke pastor says enough is enough and yesterday stepped up calls for up to 8,000 soldiers to be deployed in Toronto to help root out gunmen plaguing the city.
"We have had this scenario of killings all summer," said Pastor Allan Bowen, of the Abundant Life Assembly on Dixon Rd. "The Boxing Day shootings have all the earmarks of those in the troubled areas."
Bowen has attended or officiated at the funerals of at least 10 men, some who were suspected gang members, murdered last summer in the Jane-Finch area.
"(City leaders) have to call in the army," he said yesterday. "There is no end in sight for the killings."
He said a list of 30 gun-plagued Toronto neighbourhoods must be compiled and simultaneous raids conducted by an army-police task force to seize guns and other weapons.
DECREASE IN TOURISTS
"The army should be left in the communities for two years," he said. "They will be able to conduct random checks until the guns disappear."
He said if the murders continue to rise it will lead to a decrease in tourists and conventions heading here.
Bowen was pastor to the parents of Amon Beckles, 18, who was murdered last month outside a Rexdale Seventh Day Adventist church, where he was attending the funeral for buddy, Jamal Hemmings, 17, who had been gunned down a week earlier.
"Things will never be same here again," he said. "At least there hasn't been any murders in three weeks."
A month ago Bowen called for the War Measures Act to be introduced to target the shooters.
People want the violence to stop but they would freak out if the army were called in. It would be priceless to see the face of these wannabe thugs when their faced with someone who knows how to shoot back.
Call in army, pastor pleads
By TOM GODFREY, TORONTO SUN
We've heard lots of talk from politicians about violent crime, but where's the action? Criminals need to fear consequences
An Etobicoke pastor says enough is enough and yesterday stepped up calls for up to 8,000 soldiers to be deployed in Toronto to help root out gunmen plaguing the city.
"We have had this scenario of killings all summer," said Pastor Allan Bowen, of the Abundant Life Assembly on Dixon Rd. "The Boxing Day shootings have all the earmarks of those in the troubled areas."
Bowen has attended or officiated at the funerals of at least 10 men, some who were suspected gang members, murdered last summer in the Jane-Finch area.
"(City leaders) have to call in the army," he said yesterday. "There is no end in sight for the killings."
He said a list of 30 gun-plagued Toronto neighbourhoods must be compiled and simultaneous raids conducted by an army-police task force to seize guns and other weapons.
DECREASE IN TOURISTS
"The army should be left in the communities for two years," he said. "They will be able to conduct random checks until the guns disappear."
He said if the murders continue to rise it will lead to a decrease in tourists and conventions heading here.
Bowen was pastor to the parents of Amon Beckles, 18, who was murdered last month outside a Rexdale Seventh Day Adventist church, where he was attending the funeral for buddy, Jamal Hemmings, 17, who had been gunned down a week earlier.
"Things will never be same here again," he said. "At least there hasn't been any murders in three weeks."
A month ago Bowen called for the War Measures Act to be introduced to target the shooters.
People want the violence to stop but they would freak out if the army were called in. It would be priceless to see the face of these wannabe thugs when their faced with someone who knows how to shoot back.
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I wonder what Pastor Allan Bowen's slant on Racial Profiling is? Isn't this what he is calling for in his cry for the Army to come into "30 gun-plagued Toronto neighbourhoods". Is he a proponent of turning Toronto into another Belfast with his demand that the Army remain there for two years conducting Random checks and raids?
This post is in response to "Guest", who posted claiming to be a police officer with the TPS.
What kind of crack are you smoking buddy? Literally.
I work as a paramedic with the City of Calgary, and work on the reserve TEMS platoon in conjunction with the CPS. Anytime they do any sort of raid, and throughout various calls of the day, Calgary EMS and Calgary Police Service work hand-in-hand, all the damn time. Which is why I asked the question above.
- The police are SUPPOSED to look into suspicious activity, thats one aspect of their job. In the CC, it states that an officer is authorized to search vehicles and persons, as long as that search is reasonable. Having several 'persons of interest' driving around in a $50,000 vehicle would definitely classify them under the category of being reasonably searched. They can call racism, police harrassment all they want - but if you find an illegal firearm, or narcotics, or anything illegal at all - who gives a shit? They can try to use whatever lame excuse they want, such as racism or police harrassment - bottom line is though, they broke the law and they got caught. Tough shit.
- Are you trying to tell me that one of the reasons you guys don't move in and make some pretty bold moves is because your afraid of your superiors coming down on you? Thats a total shame, that the relationship between the politicians, police board, and the street officers is that way. Here in Calgary, everybody will back you up 100% of the time. They might do an 'inquiry' to ensure professional standards are met, but everybody ranging from your superiors, to the police association, the police board, and even local politicians will support you 100%. Your there to do a job, which is serve the community and make the community safer by preventing and tackling crime at all levels. People can say what they want and try to use whatever lame excuse they want, but if they get caught breaking the law - tough shit.
- A little side note, having police officers go on strike and walk out is absolutely unheard of, here in Calgary. Not in a million years would you ever find a Calgary Police Officer walking a picket line in his uniform...that is the most unprofessional garbage I have ever heard of in a long time. How is the public supposed to maintain confidence in the men and women who have sworn to protect them, if they are on a picket line whining about wages and working conditions? I know you folks out there in Ontario, especially the Toronto area, face a diverse network of problems in many areas, but for f**k sake - your police officers; aka, role models.
- You should also know that it really doesn't matter if the politicians back you up, nor your own police board. Its whether the public supports your decisions or not. And, having lived in Toronto for 6yrs before moving out here to the West, I'm confident in saying I think the public would support some bold action on behalf of the police, especially considering the gun-problem and gang-problem your currently trying to deal with.
Here in Calgary, the asian-gang problem was made very public this year with several shootings and drive-by shootings, similar to that of Ontario. The difference is, is that the Calgary Police Service networked, gathered a lot of great intelligence, and stuck to these guys like dirt on a white shirt. They pulled them over for EVERYTHING; i.e., illegal lane changes, jay-walking, obstructed license plates, speeding, 'driving suspiciously', etc, etc. After harassing them big time, and staying on them like mud, arrests eventually started to rack up for firearms, narcotics, and other offenses. The story goes on, but the point is; they gathered the right intelligence, and they acted on it in a way that arrested the people who needed to be arrested, and deterred a lot of other folks from becoming public due to the sheer amount of police pressure on them. The problem isn't over, but the CPS sure has a handle on things in regards to gang-warfare now.
What kind of crack are you smoking buddy? Literally.
I work as a paramedic with the City of Calgary, and work on the reserve TEMS platoon in conjunction with the CPS. Anytime they do any sort of raid, and throughout various calls of the day, Calgary EMS and Calgary Police Service work hand-in-hand, all the damn time. Which is why I asked the question above.
- The police are SUPPOSED to look into suspicious activity, thats one aspect of their job. In the CC, it states that an officer is authorized to search vehicles and persons, as long as that search is reasonable. Having several 'persons of interest' driving around in a $50,000 vehicle would definitely classify them under the category of being reasonably searched. They can call racism, police harrassment all they want - but if you find an illegal firearm, or narcotics, or anything illegal at all - who gives a shit? They can try to use whatever lame excuse they want, such as racism or police harrassment - bottom line is though, they broke the law and they got caught. Tough shit.
- Are you trying to tell me that one of the reasons you guys don't move in and make some pretty bold moves is because your afraid of your superiors coming down on you? Thats a total shame, that the relationship between the politicians, police board, and the street officers is that way. Here in Calgary, everybody will back you up 100% of the time. They might do an 'inquiry' to ensure professional standards are met, but everybody ranging from your superiors, to the police association, the police board, and even local politicians will support you 100%. Your there to do a job, which is serve the community and make the community safer by preventing and tackling crime at all levels. People can say what they want and try to use whatever lame excuse they want, but if they get caught breaking the law - tough shit.
- A little side note, having police officers go on strike and walk out is absolutely unheard of, here in Calgary. Not in a million years would you ever find a Calgary Police Officer walking a picket line in his uniform...that is the most unprofessional garbage I have ever heard of in a long time. How is the public supposed to maintain confidence in the men and women who have sworn to protect them, if they are on a picket line whining about wages and working conditions? I know you folks out there in Ontario, especially the Toronto area, face a diverse network of problems in many areas, but for f**k sake - your police officers; aka, role models.
- You should also know that it really doesn't matter if the politicians back you up, nor your own police board. Its whether the public supports your decisions or not. And, having lived in Toronto for 6yrs before moving out here to the West, I'm confident in saying I think the public would support some bold action on behalf of the police, especially considering the gun-problem and gang-problem your currently trying to deal with.
Here in Calgary, the asian-gang problem was made very public this year with several shootings and drive-by shootings, similar to that of Ontario. The difference is, is that the Calgary Police Service networked, gathered a lot of great intelligence, and stuck to these guys like dirt on a white shirt. They pulled them over for EVERYTHING; i.e., illegal lane changes, jay-walking, obstructed license plates, speeding, 'driving suspiciously', etc, etc. After harassing them big time, and staying on them like mud, arrests eventually started to rack up for firearms, narcotics, and other offenses. The story goes on, but the point is; they gathered the right intelligence, and they acted on it in a way that arrested the people who needed to be arrested, and deterred a lot of other folks from becoming public due to the sheer amount of police pressure on them. The problem isn't over, but the CPS sure has a handle on things in regards to gang-warfare now.
ArmyRick
Army.ca Veteran
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TO is paying the price for being such a head turned the other way community. Mayor Miller is a complete idiot. Lets stop blaming the americans for making the guns because at the end of the day, its Canadians pulling the trigger.
I agree lets dispense with the BS and use racial profiling. It does help sort out who is doing what. Also all the cops and stuff like that won't make a damn unless we get a tougher justice system that holds people accountable for their actions.
A 30 year sentence for attempted murder and 100 year sentence for murder would be a good start !
make a few examples. true, it will not control all the violence. It will help.
Here is an inside tidbit. There are numerous deported criminals from nearby countries (I ain't talking about the states either) that continiously come back into this country and cause more problems (we are talking about people who have no right to be here). How about an ugly story of someone being deported legally three times in two years? It has happened.
I agree lets dispense with the BS and use racial profiling. It does help sort out who is doing what. Also all the cops and stuff like that won't make a damn unless we get a tougher justice system that holds people accountable for their actions.
A 30 year sentence for attempted murder and 100 year sentence for murder would be a good start !
make a few examples. true, it will not control all the violence. It will help.
Here is an inside tidbit. There are numerous deported criminals from nearby countries (I ain't talking about the states either) that continiously come back into this country and cause more problems (we are talking about people who have no right to be here). How about an ugly story of someone being deported legally three times in two years? It has happened.
Tsk....
You people and all your crime fighting rhetoric.
Just build community centres on every street corner, ban all the guns, and crime will dissapear overnight.
We ALL share responsability for Toronto's woes because we are not practicing the politics of inclusively nearly enough. Shame on us.
You people and all your crime fighting rhetoric.
Just build community centres on every street corner, ban all the guns, and crime will dissapear overnight.
We ALL share responsability for Toronto's woes because we are not practicing the politics of inclusively nearly enough. Shame on us.
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