Canadian Submarine Capabilites (What can they do? Do we need them?)

[JasonH]

Government may take subs out of service
Last Updated Tue, 12 Oct 2004 16:38:57 EDT
GLASGOW - The federal government may take the navy's three remaining submarines out of service in the wake of the fire aboard HMCS Chicoutimi last week, Liberal MP Keith Martin said Tuesday.

Martin, parliamentary secretary to the minister of defence, said the government is studying the precautionary move while a board of inquiry examines the cause of a fire aboard the boat.

HMCS Chicoutimi (AP File Photo)
A decision is expected today.

The formal investigation into the fire, which killed one crew member and disabled the submarine, began Tuesday when the board took a first-hand look at the scene of the blaze.

"I can tell you it was startling for all of us," said Commodore Dan Murphy, the head of the Canadian navy's inquiry, speaking in Glasgow. "This was a major fire."

Murphy said there were actually two fires in three locations â “ the commanding officer's cabin, an electrical space below the cabin and at an oxygen generator in a different location.

Lieut. Chris Saunders, 32, died of smoke inhalation and eight other crewmen were injured in the electrical fire, which broke out shortly after the submarine left port in Faslane, Scotland.

Murphy pledged that the inquiry will get to the bottom of events aboard the Chicoutimi.

"Make no mistake: This is not an exercise in relentless positivism," said Murphy. "This is an inquiry and an investigation to uncover the facts."


FROM OCT. 11, 2004: 'We had to remain optimistic': Commander of Chicoutimi

Members of the inquiry also looked at the operations log as they began to sort out the sequence of events.

Murphy said he will begin interviewing witnesses in Glasgow, after which the inquiry will interview people in Halifax.

HMCS Chicoutimi was one of four mothballed British submarines bought by the Canadian government. There have been cost overruns and mechanical problems with the subs.

On Monday, Defence Minister Bill Graham said the naval inquiry could guide Ottawa as to future actions that might be taken against the British government.

Written by CBC News Online staff

 

[JasonH]

Canada confines UK-made subs to port after death
Tuesday, October 12, 2004 Posted: 2121 GMT (0521 HKT)

OTTAWA, Ontario (Reuters) -- Canada said on Tuesday it had confined its remaining fleet of three British-made submarines to Canadian ports in the wake of a fatal fire on board a fourth vessel.

One sailor died of smoke inhalation and eight others were injured after a major fire broke out on board the HMCS Chicoutimi last week as the submarine was making its maiden voyage from Scotland to Canada.

The submarine -- one of four second-hand craft bought from Britain in 1998 -- lost all power and had to be towed back to the Scottish port of Faslane.

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/10/12/canada.submarine.reut/index.html

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I think it might be prudent in order to ensure that the problem is confined to one sub.  Kinda like teh FAA grounded jet models.

 

[Jarnhamar]

??

Seems like a logical thing to do. There was a fire, their not too sure why, so instead of risking the lives of the sailors in the other subs for nothing they are doing the safe thing and grounding them until they can figure out what the problem was.

Their not taking it out on a class of warships, their trying to make sure it doesn't happen again, no?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I agree with Ghost

 

[Inch]

I concur gents. We do it all the time with aircraft. After that Sea King crash on the deck of the Iroquois,  the entire Sea King fleet was grounded until they figured out why it happened.  It's just a safety precaution and quite common in aviation so I don't see why it wouldn't apply to the navy as well.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

They did the same thing with the ML when there was a fault with the wheels/brakes.  Not as high profile as a sub or chopper though.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Concur with Inch and CFL.   It was a bit of a pain last year when we grounded the Sea King fleet for a while, but we learned alot of things from the IROQUOIS BOI that are going to make the Sea King's final few years alot safer.

Without prejudging the CHICOUTIMI BOI, it is quite likely that alot of good will come of it, both in terms of new (better? different?) procedures and new (better? different?) equipment.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

It was a safe and responsible thing for the goverment to do so soon after the accident. Kudos to them for not waffling for a change.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Now this pisses me off,...no one thought that this was important enough to pass on?
 
Brits knew about sub insulation problems: report
CTV.ca News Staff

The British navy knew about insulation problems on the main power lines in submarines more than 10 years ago -- well before it sold them to Canada, according to a Saturday report in The Globe and Mail.

But it didn't upgrade the insulation on all four submarines and never explicitly told the Canadian navy about the problems.

"Those cables carry upwards of 500 volts of electricity. They're extremely dangerous," former submarine commander Peter Kavanagh told CTV News. "If the insulation was an issue, that should have had more visibility, I would think."

Both the British and Canadian navies independently devised upgrades for one water-prone location on the sub. But neither navy extended the upgrades to insulation on connections where high-voltage lines pass through.

One such location is where an electrical fire broke out earlier this month aboard HMCS Chicoutimi, killing Lieut. Chris Saunders.

A particularly dangerous situation results if those poorly insulated cables are exposed to salt water.

"The electricity jumps, essentially from the cable ... basically causing, if you want, an explosion," Kavanagh said, adding he suspects that's what happened on Chicoutimi.

"No one expected an insulation breakdown in that area," Commodore Roger Westwood, Canada's senior naval engineer told the Globe. "It's a clean, dry environment."

Since the tragic fire aboard Chicoutimi, the main power-line connections have been ordered upgraded. It will match the more durable insulation used in other parts of the submarine.

The British navy knew about the insulation problems in 1993, only three years after the commissioning of HMS Upholder, now known as HMCS Chicoutimi.

As a result, insulation on power-line connections near the engine room bulkhead was replaced. The British navy documented the repair and made the same change to another of the four subs which were later purchased by Canada.

However, neither the problem or the repairs made were explicitly explained to Canada before the subs were handed over. "If you had rummaged through the files you would have found it," Westwood said.

In St. Catharines, Ont., Conservative Leader Stephen Harper said his party has some questions.

"First of all, was the government competent in the purchase -- did they know everything? And if they didn't, are we going to take appropriate steps later?" he said.

The military's board of inquiry is promising some answers by the end of November.

Ken Knott, a retired navy veteran, knew one thing for certain: "During peacetime you shouldn't be killing anybody. That's the big difference. That is what made this one look so bad."

 

[canuck101]

Nothing will surprise me anymore when it comes to the Canadian Armed Forces.  The British told lies and all we say is how much will that be and pay them to fix it.

 

[Infanteer]

I'm waiting for the board of inquiry.

Just because there is a recall on a 2002 Ford Pickup doesn't mean they all get junked and Windsor closes-up shop.  To many knee-jerk reactions in this fiasco.

 

[bubba]

i don't understand why canada just doesn't build there own,instead buying second hand.are not the friggits good ships??? there is shipyards on both coast's that can handle it.think

 

[QORvanweert]

If we built our own then we would be making a sound rational decision that might help out the navy, so, then in wartime we would have enough stuff to go around. which is why we don't do it. they would much rather have us hurry up and wait then have things pre-built.... on a serious note, I don't think we have adequate resources for that, although Esquimalt is pretty nice..

 

[Edward Campbell]

i don't understand why canada just doesn't build there own,instead buying second hand.are not the friggits good ships??? there is shipyards on both coast's that can handle it.think

Because there are no naval architects in Canada able to design a submarine and there are no ship-yards in Canada with the facilities and skilled staff necessary to build a submarine and because the costs would be out of sight.

Canada is down to one, only one, major ship-yard able to do military work with minimal preparation: Industries Davie in Levis, QC.   The old Saint John Shipbuilding enterprise - which built the Halifax class frigates was driven out of the military business, quite literally, by the Government of Canada to ensure that no one could compete with Davie, ever again.

 

[bubba]

well roj that makes me wanna puke,got to love protectionism, are own govornment killin the trades. :threat:

 

[NavyGrunt]

Because there are no naval architects in Canada able to design a submarine and there are no ship-yards in Canada with the facilities and skilled staff necessary to build a submarine and because the costs would be out of sight.

Canada is down to one, only one, major ship-yard able to do military work with minimal preparation: Industries Davie in Levis, QC.   The old Saint John Shipbuilding enterprise - which built the Halifax class frigates was driven out of the military business, quite literally, by the Government of Canada to ensure that no one could compete with Davie, ever again.

thanks for fielding that one for me. its gets old telling people we dont build our own ships because we CANT....they seem quite sure we have facilities everywhere to build. im not sure where that rumour is coming from...

 

[Storm]

its gets old telling people we dont build our own ships because we CANT....they seem quite sure we have facilities everywhere to build. im not sure where that rumour is coming from...

Maybe because we used to have facilities, but when they were shut down it was done with very little noise. People knew a number of years back that we were building things, and never heard any of that had changed.

 

[Slim]

Canada is down to one, only one, major ship-yard able to do military work with minimal preparation: Industries Davie in Levis, QC.   The old Saint John Shipbuilding enterprise - which built the Halifax class frigates was driven out of the military business, quite literally, by the Government of Canada to ensure that no one could compete with Davie, ever again.

That will really suck if quebec ever jumps ship (no pun intended) But, maybe the government wants us to have no internal capability to do these things...Or is it that Quebec demanded it as part of the deal to stay inside Confederation?

Slim

 

[bubba]

as far as st. john's ship yard goes it's owned by the irvings,they arn't out of buisness.the shipyard is closed but the gear is there in storage,mothballed.the irvings own al;most all of of the shipyards onthe east coast.presently there building,repairing offshore rigs, boats etc.one reason were so far behind asia,europe in ship building that there is no laws to stop can coy's from building there boats over there.the way alot of us trademen look at it,if you want to work in canadian waters you better sail in ships built on canadian shores.as far as subs go i think if we can build something like hibernia,we could build a dozen deisal sub's.how hard would it be for the gov to hire an experianced enginearing firm.hey ex dragoon who's doing the repair work,navy shipyard or civy contractor.what ar the repair crews saying about the british workmanship.