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US Rocket Plan scares Nfld's Williams and he's Fuming!

Trinity said:
Maybe i'm just overly sensitive.

But to use the death of my friend as a punchline to one of your jokes, doesn't seem appropriate.
Especially in a military forum where I know that other people here lost friends in that accident.

I apologize if I offended you and others with my words, I know it can be painful to loose someone, but I wasn't joking really. I was using it to point out the fact how (in my opinion) it's rediculous for that particular politician to use this as a valid threat when we have accidental friendly fire incidents.

As someone else mentioned quite effectively:
Sounds like, in reality, the odds are about as even as Hibernia:

- having a piece of Soviet space junk fall on it
- having a meteor (complete with Bruce Willis) demolish it
- being attacked and destroyed by a pod of Narwhals

Are any of these worth the political posturing?

It's sad and I believe makes us look silly. We already have strained relations with the USA and this makes us look that much less serious.

Again> I do sincerely apologize if I brought up rough memories and offended anyone.


Alright so arguing with two mods on this site would be silly, I'm not getting into a pissing match with either you Bruce or you Infanteer but my comments can hardly be construed as bad mouthing Canada. Alas how people from Newfoundland feel about long being the doormat and people outside of Newfoundland feel vastly differs and I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Bruce http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/04/08/missile050408.html, http://kelowna.thesun.net/content/cp_article.asp?id=/global_feeds/CanadianPress/NationalNews/n040871A.htm, http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1113159969158_5/?hub=Canada A few examples of the one trillion nonsense. It was Alex Swann who made the ten trillion remark, he's the spokesperson for Anne McClellan. You've made a good point Infanteer, why is it such a big deal to move the trajectory, not only are there oil rigs out there but it is a heavily fished area and also a shipping lane. What's the big deal with moving it? One more note, what do you suppose the reaction would be if it were coming down over the great lakes?
Island Ryhno said:
One more note, what do you suppose the reaction would be if it were coming down over the great lakes?

People living there point to the sky and say " Hey, look at that, it's just like living on an oil rig in Hibernia."

Everybody knows the rockets wouldn't come down in the great lakes, they would revolve around them. 
The test is to be conducted on 17 April. Faer not for the US has done this type of thing before and we have never lost an oil rig yet !
whiskey601 said:
Everybody knows the rockets wouldn't come down in the great lakes, they would revolve around them.  

Nonsense... the whole area is dense enough that the rockts would be sucked into the gravitational pull...
Apparently the denseness is related to the disproportionate concentration of riches and other booty appropriated from the ROC.  I said "booty", not "....."  :D
Well holly (in the words of a fellow Eastern Canadian) mary mudder of geezuz!!!  :blotto:
I never knew you folks thought the Great Lakes and the golden horseshoe was so important! So the rest of Canada really does revolve around us! That's great, now I can go cause a ruckous and it'll be okay, because I'm from the great lakes and I'll be the next Prime Minister because of it!!!


PS> Maybe a subject for a seperate thread, or maybe I simply don't know, but while we're on the topic of Prime Minister, does one have to have military service to go for the position? If not, do you folks think they -SHOULD- have to have done some service???
Quote from island Rhyno,
Alright so arguing with two mods on this site would be silly, I'm not getting into a pissing match with either you Bruce or you Infanteer

Disagree and argue[or agree] all you want with the Mod's, we are just posters like everyone else when it comes to topics.
If I have to step in as a Mod, than I will state that and certainly just not for the reason that you disagree with me.
If only I was that right all the time..........
Fair enough, so here's a story from 590 Vocm News our local news radio

Still Looking for Answers
April 12, 2005

He's gone so far as to speak with the prime minister on it, but Premier Danny Williams is still looking for answers about the launch of an American Titan Four rocket which could rain debris on the oilfields off Newfoundland.  Williams met yesterday with a full contingent of industry representatives and is encouraged that they are also making contact with American officials to try and get some answers.  Williams reiterates evacuation of offshore production platforms will cause a significant financial impact and the question of lawsuits afterwards.A Conservative MP says the state of relations between the Canadian and U-S governments has a lot to do with the impasse on the rocket launch. Gordon O'Connor, the country's defense critic, suggests that if the Martin government held any sway with the U-S, it would be able to either have the flight path changed or the mission scrubbed

So is the real problem here then that Premiere Williams is making Martin and the Liberals look bad? Are the Americans using this as a sort of in your face to Canada? Do we really have no sway with the Americans at all, I mean how hard would it be to just change the damn trajectory. Also Joe you posted something about making us look silly to the Americans, well we've been standing our ground to the Americans for some time now on other issues (Star Wars, Iraq etc) Why should we back off on this one?
Hey, the Pentagon saved our buts in 2000.


Iridium is the world's first global satellite telephone mesh that went bankrupt, forcing the investors to plan a 14-month mass de-orbiting of 74 satellites, bringing them crashing through the atmosphere. The National Aeronautics and Space Administration puts the odds of a particular satellite hitting a human at 1 in 18,405. The odds for any of the spacecraft hitting a human is 1 in 250.

Now, if we weren't worried about that, why in the hell are we worrying about a one in a trillion possibility?  Hell, there's a better than one in a trillion chance that I'm going to win the lottery next friday, but I'm not about to quit my job and sit on my butt waiting for it.
Ok so if it's the odds we are playing then people should know that Titan IV rockets are not exactly dependable.
http://wired-vig.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,1537,00.html (last line, Titan IV odds)
Also, are the odds that Nasa has given in ideal conditions? What should happen if there is a storm over the north atlantic that day and winds are blowing at 100km/h, how would that affect the debris?
ok, I know I was not going to post anymore, but if you will allow me - and yes - I AM a rocket scientist (astrophysicist actually).

1. It is not as easy as you think to change orbital mechanics calculations at the initial end. However it can be recalculated relatively quickly - certainly before the 17th. 2. Is it an expended stage, a fuel shell or an empty tank coming down? There is a vast difference - and I can't seem to find out which. 3. NASA spends less time worrying about what happens when you launch then when you get to orbit. THAT's where the junk is!!! Hell, we have supercomputers constantly calculating where all the junk, expended satellites, retired satellites, discarded and lost equipment, empty third stages, etc. is... You would be amazed at what is up there and how crowded the "best" orbits are - so changing orbits and launch patterns are intertwined.

Danny is a politician - sound bites and looking good for the voters is what they do. Sure he's being a little histrionic! That's what they do - cut him some slack - he's playing up for the home crowd.

The oil companies (if it is indeed them), are also overreacting. Abandoning a well in production because of a 1 in 1 trillon (or 10 trillion) chance is poor economics and bad risk management. A 10K Kilogram piece of metal falling from near earth orbit at terminal velocity WOULD make a cool splash, but would probably not cause as much damage at you think to the oil platform (this isn't a dinosaur killer!)

So - my prediction - a tempest in a teapot (or in the space industry - a fart in an airlock)

Well, there you have it folks - we have our own Rocket Scientist and he said don't worry.

Thanks for the info pronto.  :)
Premier the Honorable Daniel Williams, PC, Ll.b (Oxon) Rhodes Scholar, barrister, businessman
is in my opinion the smartest Provincial Premier in Canada circa 2005. He is adept at playing
the media, and creating the old military tactic of "diversion". He needed focus away from some
of the issues annoying his government, like the crab fishery, so he got it. Cheers from MacLeod
The test is to be conducted on 17 April. Faer not for the US has done this type of thing before and we have never lost an oil rig yet !
True. On the other hand, you have lost plenty of rockets. :warstory:

Chicken Little, where are you?
Right here!: