Troops carrying pistols outside the gate

[DiverMedic]

If by BOTC you are referring to Basic Officer Training Course, that is incorrect. When I was on course this past summer we did not fire, handle nor even get a look at a BHP. The courses have been slightly remodeled since then (as they continually seem to be) and it could now be part of the curriculem but I couldn't say. Perhaps an instructor from St Jean would be willing to lend a hand...

My mistake, I was basing that off of a previous post from a previous instructor.

Still don't understand why it can't be part of these courses tho.

DM

 

[JesseWZ]

From an unexperienced point of view, I feel that not only should this be part of BOTC, but perhaps this should be included on BMQ as well. If we are expecting all trades all ranks to be familiar with it...

 

[Redeye]

My mistake, I was basing that off of a previous post from a previous instructor.

Still don't understand why it can't be part of these courses tho.

DM

At least for the Army and purple trades on the Officer side of the house, it's part of Common Army Phase - everyone gets at least a familiarization shoot with it.  Based on the training I've gotten (which is just that) I'd only want to carry one on the basis of the civilian pistol experience I have because I've learned a lot more from IDPA/IPSC-type shooters than I have from the Army.

 

[AirCanuck]

At least for the Army and purple trades on the Officer side of the house, it's part of Common Army Phase - everyone gets at least a familiarization shoot with it.  Based on the training I've gotten (which is just that) I'd only want to carry one on the basis of the civilian pistol experience I have because I've learned a lot more from IDPA/IPSC-type shooters than I have from the Army.

it seems to me that at least for BOTC it would be a valuable piece of training to add - as far as I know, all officer trades are required to learn it, no?

 

[KevinB]

When I went thru we did it on basic -- of course that is the only weapon system we did that is still in the system 

  The problem many in all ranks from Pte to Gen make is that doing TOET's and Shooting will make you competant, which is simply not true - unless the TOET's are done in a useful way (i.e. not out of the book) and the ranges are designed to develope shooters instead of checking the box (quite frankly if you cant get HPS in the Pistol PWT your probably deaf, dumb or blind).




 

 

[Jarnhamar]

I don't think time is a factor in this case.

We should take a couple of weeks or a month and write it off as a range month. Put everyone through the PWT's with the Pistol, C7 and C9. Once that's done put everyone through the gunfighter training.  Tie it in with the yearly MLOC stuff or something.

All trades and all ranks leave the wire, many of them spending time at the FOBs. Everyone should go through the gunfighter training and everyone should be trained on and fire all the commonly used weapoins in an alive manner.

 

[Dissident]

quite frankly if you cant get HPS in the Pistol PWT your probably deaf, dumb or blind).

I've only done the Branch Qual. What is the PWT on the pistol?

 

[TCBF]

- Time is always a factor.  Administration trumps training.  Always has - always will.

 

[Jarnhamar]

- Time is always a factor.  Administration trumps training.  Always has - always will.

Fair enough. We need to look at how we allocate our time and improve on it.

I've never been in the field (heck, I'm not even in the CF yet) so I wouldn't know, but does a soldier ever get separated from his/her rifle while in battle? I would say that the question of wether or not soldiers should carry a pistol would be another question of practicality. With the way that today's wars are being fought from distances (aside from close combat ambushes that may occur) I don't really see a use for a pistol seeing as how I don't think we're allowed to pistol whip captives these days.

Of course, on second thought, it is always nice to have a backup and would be very reassuring since it could, one day, save a life of someone on our side.

I could be way off though given my lack of experience.

I think you're a little off
Soldiers DO get seperated from their weapons. Weapons also get busted and jammed.
I'm not sure what you mean by wars being fought from a distance. THere are some very close quarters situations in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Even in the past I think we had better uses for pistols than beating someone with it  :

 

[benny88]

 Even in the past I think we had better uses for pistols than beating someone with it  :

    I thought before I joined the CF just used clubs!

 

[Franko]

    I thought before I joined the CF just used clubs!

Naa.....pick axe handles, torque wrenches, pry bars, shovels work just fine.      ;D

Regards

 

[Nfld Sapper]

RBD don't forget Bailey Panel Carrying Handles

 

[blacktriangle]

For the record, the BHP is still bad ass. Gonna hopefully be putting a few hundred rds through one this weekend  ;D


But I guess those in the know reccomend going private sector for training?

 

[AirCanuck]

With the way that today's wars are being fought from distances (aside from close combat ambushes that may occur) I don't really see a use for a pistol seeing as how I don't think we're allowed to pistol whip captives these days.

I think you are WAY off on this one brother.
Plenty of close-combat happens these days.  Battles can only be fought from a distance for so long before you must close with and destroy the enemy, right?

I'm sure soldiers get separated from their weapons, especially when exhausted and under extreme circumstances (or they can be destroyed by IED's etc).  I don't think an argument can be made just yet that the pistol is an outdated weapon.

 

[OldSolduer]

I like the quote "admin time trumps training time". How bloody true!
If I may I would like to give you some examples:

Parade Night for the PRes folks: How many times have you had your parade night training canned because someone who thought he/she was important needed to brief you? I've only been back in the PRes for about 5 years now, and I can't count how many times this has happened. Same with reports and returns...all seem to be highly important and MUST be actioned yesterday, if not sooner.

Now for the Reg Force folks: In my old unit, 90% of the bn strength had to under go the PWT. A 10% leeway was given because of courses, leave, medical etc. Now I think that's pretty important stuff....marksmanship in the infantry is.
When the SHARP and Diversity training were instituted, 100% was the acceptable numbers that had to get this training....NO exceptions......OK enough of this ramble.

Back to the point....IF all the administrative nausea that we inflict upon ourselves can be cleared away by the implementation of my old friend COMMON SENSE...(I'm sure everyone has met him at one time or another) then maybe we could get range time and ammo to train the troops on things like pistol shooting....or am I making too much sense again?

 

[AirCanuck]

Common sense... I think I used to know him... I haven't really seen him much in the last little while though - ever since I joined the Forces, we've parted ways!  ;D

 

[1feral1]

1. I've never been in the field (heck, I'm not even in the CF yet) so I wouldn't know

2. With the way that today's wars are being fought from distances (aside from close combat ambushes that may occur) I don't really see a use for a pistol seeing as how I don't think we're allowed to pistol whip captives these days.

3. I could be way off though given my lack of experience.

I will bite instead of bark tonight.

1. Exactly!

2. Are you the expert are you?? What do you know about enemy engagment etc?  You can't even grasp reality, and your IGNORNACE shines thru it all. To sum it up, people who post shyte like this frustrate me to no end, and shyte me to tears. Thats YOU BTW! You Don't see the use for a pistol??? OMFG!!!! Oh, and the comment on pistol whipping is SIMPLY crap! Grow up! You want to be a member?  : YOU got a bloody long row to hoe. Infact your whole post I would not use as toilet paper, ya, even in the field!

3. Exactly yet again. If you don't know the subject matter, speculation makes you look like an ass (dictionary definition), not a personal attack.

Sort your self out or move on!

 

[Jarnhamar]

I'd hate to see you're bite, Wes 

 

[NL_engineer]

I'd hate to see you're bite, Wes 

Read his top line again

I will bite instead of bark tonight.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Maybe I just meant I was glad he was biting someone else  ;D