Troops carrying pistols outside the gate

[JesseWZ]

- A few things about pistol training:

1.  ALL CF Reg F Officers shot the Inglis Browning during BOTC.  To do this, they had to pass 'Handling Tests' (still colloquially called TsOET) before firing.  Therefore, for this population, lack of basic proficiency is a matter of skill fade, nothing more.

I am assuming you are speaking past tense, as the Browning is no longer a part of the BOTC (phase 1). I'm fairly certain on that point as I didn't see one while on course.  From what I understand (and I could be wrong, as I have yet to complete it) it is now a part of CAP or Phase 2.

 

[AirCanuck]

If you haven't read the past pages and pages, you'll see that your training will be inadequate and limited. Do what TCBF has suggested.

I have read them, but as a university ROTP student, it isn't practical for me to join a local range.  I meant for the future, which is why I mentioned joining the local shooting team.

 

[TCBF]

I have read them, but as a university ROTP student, it isn't practical for me to join a local range.  I meant for the future, which is why I mentioned joining the local shooting team.

- University students are on swim teams, ski teams, skating clubs, hockey clubs, why not a shooting club?  The U of T had their own indoor range on campus up to a few months ago.

 

[TCBF]

I am assuming you are speaking past tense, as the Browning is no longer a part of the BOTC (phase 1). I'm fairly certain on that point as I didn't see one while on course.   From what I understand (and I could be wrong, as I have yet to complete it) it is now a part of CAP or Phase 2.

- Righto.  I taught BOTC I/II in 1998. 

 

[JesseWZ]

Understandable. I think it should be on phase 1, that way all trades and branches would be at least slightly familiar with it...

 

[medaid]

I have read them, but as a university ROTP student, it isn't practical for me to join a local range. 

Irrelevant. Why would it be impractical? I've shot with a few who are ROTP students... why are you so different?

 

[AirCanuck]

- University students are on swim teams, ski teams, skating clubs, hockey clubs, why not a shooting club?  The U of T had their own indoor range on campus up to a few months ago.

I think you answered your question right there - because we already have an ass load going on.

not the mention, UWO does NOT have it's own shooting range  -  if it did, I'd be there.

Mod edit : comment removed for PERSEC issues

 

[1feral1]

Definitely true MT.  Even the annual shoot on the 7 isn't enough.  But at least then you have a number of mags to blow off.  Supposedly on the 9mm range you get 30 rounds?

DM

I don't know how things go in the CF, its been since 1994 that I was on a CF range prac.

However, I will say here in the Australian Army, to become qualified on the pistol for example, you must do a course which covers theory, and practical use, then qualifiy. Once thats done you get written up to be qualified on that pistol.

Prior to my deployment, we shot often, and once overseas, we shot every Wednesday (as much as you wanted) when we could, and every Thursday, did T'OET's under the supervision of a NCO or higher, yes all documented in writing, and kept on file.

We wore our pistols all the time, and outside the wire, had our F88 carbines also.

There was not one person in the entire Combat Team who was not a hazard, or was weak, for we were training to a high standard.

After 7 months in Iraq, we had two UDs, one with a Minimi, and one with a MAG 58. We also used the buddy system at the unload bays, and no one cleaned their pistols or carbines in their rooms.

The key to familiarisation of pistols (or any weapon)  is continious training (T'sOET) and actual firing the weapon at a range. 

My 2 cents.

Wes

 

[AirCanuck]

Wes, I think you're right on the money with that one - I doubt anyone here will disagree with the fact that the best way to keep current on a weapon is continuous training and use.  Makes you wonder why there isn't more of both of these...

 

[benny88]

Makes you wonder why there isn't more of both of these...

  $$$$$$$$

 

[1feral1]

Sorry Ben, I disagree. You cannot comprimise on safety, and operational trg regardless of $$$. Troops going into theatre must be confident on the weapons they use.

I can't see the CF comprimising on operational trg, and operations itself.

 

[benny88]

Sorry Ben, I disagree. You cannot comprimise on safety, and operational trg regardless of $$$. Troops going into theatre must be confident on the weapons they use.

I can't see the CF comprimising on operational trg, and operations itself.

 
  Definitely on the same page here Wes. I didn't mean that was the way it should be, but I'm sure we can both agree that what should be isn't always so. Just saying that the costs associated with training and practicing with pistols could be a reason why pistols aren't more readily available. And rightly so, because if the money/time isn't there to train people in the proper use of handguns then they shouldn't be using them.

Troops going into theatre must be confident on the weapons they use.

  You're right, that's paramount.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Considering CF members will be issued pistols and their lives and the lives of other soldiers may depend n them- we should make time for this training period.

I don't think we can justify talking about costs when we pay $200 for toilet seats and $800 for chairs.

 

[geo]

Hem... Considering all the expenses we are running up with exercises in Ft Bliss and Wainwright AND the lead up training we are running all our troops through prior to deployment, money is no object.  They will spend the $$$ that has to be spent... if there is any shortage of anything.... it's a matter of time

 

[Panzer Grenadier]

if there is any shortage of anything.... it's a matter of time

geo could you clarify this part for my own paranoid nagging mind?

 

[DiverMedic]

There is always time and it doesn't have to be when we start our work-up training.  The CoC knows that specific ranks and trades will be carrying pistols.  Make is part of the courses essential to them then. 
In BRT we trained with the C7 because we will be expected to use it.  Snr NCOs and Officers carry them so make it part of ILQ and BOTC (believe that it is already part of BOTC from earlier in the conversation).  Medics are expected to carry so make it part of our QL3 and the same with other trades.
At least then it isn't left till work-up training where you spend a day and a limited number of rounds to become comfortable with it, and I'm not even going to suggest that you are proficient with it.  As well, when the unit does it's annual range day with the C7 (and other weapons depending on the unit/trades) pistols are shot as well.

just my 0.02

DM

 

[riggermade]

  Snr NCOs and Officers carry them so make it part of ILQ and BOTC (believe that it is already part of BOTC from earlier in the conversation). 
DM

Just a point as from your profile I don't know your experience but ILQ in house portion is 3 weeks long and there is no weapons trg on it

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Hem... Considering all the expenses we are running up with exercises in Ft Bliss and Wainwright AND the lead up training we are running all our troops through prior to deployment, money is no object.  They will spend the $$$ that has to be spent... if there is any shortage of anything.... it's a matter of time

As a generality, money is always and object.  But I agree, they did dump a god aweful lot of money down in Texas.
But how do you figure we don't have enought time?  Half of Wainwright is written off with what we got done on Southern Bear, and that is only May in any case.  That leaves all of April, June and most of August.  I have to imagine we could fit a few range days in around the cultural awareness and media relations training. 

 

[DiverMedic]

Just a point as from your profile I don't know your experience but ILQ in house portion is 3 weeks long and there is no weapons trg on it

Haven't done ILQ, was just using it as an example.  But that is my point.  As far as I know, BOTC (and I'm leaving the infantry out of this as they get everything I believe) is the only trade course that has any pistol training on it.

 

[JesseWZ]

If by BOTC you are referring to Basic Officer Training Course, that is incorrect. When I was on course this past summer we did not fire, handle nor even get a look at a BHP. The courses have been slightly remodeled since then (as they continually seem to be) and it could now be part of the curriculem but I couldn't say. Perhaps an instructor from St Jean would be willing to lend a hand...