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Military Professionalism

As an aside, I've always found it interesting (oh, what the heck ... FRUSTRATING) when it comes time to apply for a passport ... and  military officers are conspicuous by their absence from this Government of Canada list ... which I take to be an indication of the low social status accorded to the military by The Department Of Foreign Affaiirs and The Passport Office ...

http://www.ppt.gc.ca/passports/get_guarantors_e.asp

Eligible guarantors for Canadian residents
Your guarantor must:

1.  Be a Canadian citizen residing in Canada and must be accessible to the Passport Office for verification.
2.  Have known you personally for at least two years.
3.  Be included in one of the following groups:
Chiropractor
Judge, magistrate
Lawyer
Mayor
Medical doctor or dentist
Minister of religion authorized under provincial law to perform marriages
Notary public
Optometrist
Person occupying a senior administrative position in a community college (includes CEGEP)
Pharmacist
Police officer (municipal, provincial or RCMP)
Postmaster
Principal of a primary or secondary school
Professional accountant (member of APA, CA, CGA, CMA, PA, RPA)
Professional engineer (P.Eng., Eng. in Quebec)
Senior administrator or teacher in a university
Veterinarian
 
I got one passport guaranteed by an Officer - I remember it has to be a Reg Force officer though (it was the RSS Officer).  As well, all our Green Passports for our tour were signed by the Coy 2ic.
 
Infanteer said:
I got one passport guaranteed by an Officer - I remember it has to be a Reg Force officer though (it was the RSS Officer).   As well, all our Green Passports for our tour were signed by the Coy 2ic.

Ack.  There's a little-known loophole whereby "an officer serving in an administrative position" can sign, however I'm addressing the larger issue whereby military officers are considered to be less professional than principals, postmasters, etc. (no insult intended to any of the professions recognised by the Passport Office, however ... it's insulting that commissioned military officers "are not worthy").
 
Michael OLeary said:
IIRC, at one time any officer could sign as a passport guarantor.

Maybe once upon a time, but not today.  And, if you're standing in line with everybody else for a blue passport, it's a good idea to have a photocopy of the Passport Office's own rules - not every employee knows the one that pertains to CF officers as guarantors.
 
I think you will find that, even though it is not listed, they will accept "An Officer on Full Time Service in Her Majesty's Canadian Forces" as a guarantor. I stand to be corrected on this.

Cheers
 
Are regular officers not also "notaries" and wouldn't that allow them to sign passport apps as guarantors?  It seems to me that I read that in QR&O's once.
 
As a Toronto Firefighter for almost 25 years, being in a profession doesn't make one professional.  This is I have noticed in the firehall and on the fireground. 
I have been in the CIC for 7 years and the same is true here.  Having an advanced education may make a person book smart but what about the average "Joe" that has been there done that with more t-shirts than you can count.  IMHO a person can be professional whatever their rank, job by their day to day actions in the course of their job.
 
Ferret Driver said:
As a Toronto Firefighter for almost 25 years, being in a profession doesn't make one professional.   This is I have noticed in the firehall and on the fireground.  

I have some (very limited) familiarity with the fire service in Canada and the US, both full-time and volunteer, and I tend to agree with you. Despite the amount of technical study and drill training that is required of firefighters, and the amount of "incident command" training done by fire officers, IMHO what is very badly needed is for fire officers to be given real leadership training as well, starting at the Lt/Capt level. I have heard of some terrible examples of behaviour by fire officers (at various ranks from Capt to DC or even Chief...) who quite obviously did not know what it meant to be a real leader, and let their white helmet go to their heads. Not to single out the fire service: I believe that the police service (including the RCMP) is in a similar or worse situation. In my dealings with various police officers (I use the word offcer in its military sense...) in various dom ops over the years, I am sometimes not generally too impressed. And yet we often hear that these two services are "just like" the millitary.

Cheers.
 
Interesting sidenote...


I was just informed recently that Officers of the Canadian Forces are no longer able to act as Notary Publics...
As doctors etc are still considered professionals in the sense of acting as notary publics ...what happened to the status of Commissioned Officers....


Can any of our comissioned bretheren comment?
 
Come on Badger, just cause its 0300 doesn't mean you can doze off......... :boring:....thats MY department...
 
pbi said:
I think you will find that, even though it is not listed, they will accept "An Officer on Full Time Service in Her Majesty's Canadian Forces" as a guarantor. I stand to be corrected on this.

Cheers

From DAOD 7000-0:

Subject to the conditions in applicable provincial and territorial laws (see DAOD 7000-1), a commissioned officer may administer an oath or take an affirmation or statutory declaration only for:

another member of the CF;

a dependant of another member; or

a civilian directly associated with the CF.

The provincial laws are usually where the part about "an officer on full time service in..." comes into it. I'm not entirely sure if the above powers apply to what's needed for the passport, but as far as I can tell, officers are granted a degree of authority, though only with respect to someone associated with the military in some way.
 
Professionalism comes from ones training and using that training as a guide line but at the same time one must recognise ones limitations and be honoust about it and treat all with equal fairness with out one having to give up control but still being fare and honoust about ones limitations.

That is Professionalism.
 
Spr.Earl said:
Professionalism comes from ones training and using that training as a guide line but at the same time one must recognise ones limitations and be honoust about it and treat all with equal fairness with out one having to give up control but still being fare and honoust about ones limitations.

That is Professionalism.
.......Then I guess a garbage man is a professional, so long as he does his job diligently, and to the best of his ability/training.........
 
pbi said:
I think you will find that, even though it is not listed, they will accept "An Officer on Full Time Service in Her Majesty's Canadian Forces" as a guarantor. I stand to be corrected on this.

When I worked there, the only CF members we would accept as a guarantor would have to be the CO of the member's unit, or someone else high enough in the administrative chain.  The problem the PPT office has is being able to validate the officer in quesiton, as if your CO is currently posted in a hard-to-reach area, you won't get your passport until we've talked to them...  At least, that was the song at dance at training.  :)

T
 
There are two distinct classes of military professionals who fill the criteria for "Professionals" and they are the commissioned officers, and the senior NCO.  Little has changed since the Roman Legions in this respect, there are still two paths to professionalism, that of the much maligned 2nd Lt (once a Junior Tribune), who derives his status from his commission and prior education, and learns his trade as he rises in seniority.  The second body of professionals are what was once called the Centuriate, the senior NCO who have risen through long service and consistant excellence to positions of authority.  To demonstrate that this system is still in force in the Canadian Armed Forces, take a good  look at the chain of command.  I personally recall one memorable instance where our officers had performed dismally on the parade square on the rehearsal for an inspection by a Major General, with the result that the men were fallen out, and the Colonel turned the officers over to the RSM for the rest of the day.  A few thousand years ago, it would have been the Legate (senior commissioned officer), turning his Tribunes (junior commissioned officers) over to his Primus Pilium (First Spear, or senior Centurion, equivalent to RSM).  Then as now, the RSM is acknowledged as being of lower rank, but of higher professional standing than officers who are his superiors in rank.
    Just as with Doctors and Nurses, the gap between the required knowledge of the Officers and NCO's have both lessened, and changed.  The increasing technical sophistication of all trades, has made the specialized knowledge of an NCO equal in depth, although different in focus to that of the degree bearing officers.  As technology continues to advance, so will this trend.  Officers main focus is to lead, and apply the skills and force of their subordinates to accomplish the tasks set by their military superiors.  This does not mean they need to possess these skills to the same depth as their troops, they simply need to know how to employ them effectively.  The commissioned officers and senior NCO's are equal in professionalism, the difference is the focus.  No one is suggesting that this threatens the chain of command, it simply recognizes the day of the pig-ignorant pike pusher is long gone, and the soldiers of today are as much a professional as the officers who command them.
 
mainerjohnthomas said:
There are two distinct classes of military professionals who fill the criteria for "Professionals" and they are the commissioned officers, and the senior NCO.   Little has changed since the Roman Legions in this respect, there are still two paths to professionalism, that of the much maligned 2nd Lt (once a Junior Tribune), who derives his status from his commission and prior education, and learns his trade as he rises in seniority.   The second body of professionals are what was once called the Centuriate, the senior NCO who have risen through long service and consistant excellence to positions of authority.   To demonstrate that this system is still in force in the Canadian Armed Forces, take a good   look at the chain of command.   I personally recall one memorable instance where our officers had performed dismally on the parade square on the rehearsal for an inspection by a Major General, with the result that the men were fallen out, and the Colonel turned the officers over to the RSM for the rest of the day.   A few thousand years ago, it would have been the Legate (senior commissioned officer), turning his Tribunes (junior commissioned officers) over to his Primus Pilium (First Spear, or senior Centurion, equivalent to RSM).   Then as now, the RSM is acknowledged as being of lower rank, but of higher professional standing than officers who are his superiors in rank.
     Just as with Doctors and Nurses, the gap between the required knowledge of the Officers and NCO's have both lessened, and changed.   The increasing technical sophistication of all trades, has made the specialized knowledge of an NCO equal in depth, although different in focus to that of the degree bearing officers.   As technology continues to advance, so will this trend.   Officers main focus is to lead, and apply the skills and force of their subordinates to accomplish the tasks set by their military superiors.   This does not mean they need to possess these skills to the same depth as their troops, they simply need to know how to employ them effectively.   The commissioned officers and senior NCO's are equal in professionalism, the difference is the focus.   No one is suggesting that this threatens the chain of command, it simply recognizes the day of the pig-ignorant pike pusher is long gone, and the soldiers of today are as much a professional as the officers who command them.
............don't know if I got all of that, but well said nonetheless
 
Sorry to jump in unrelated again, but I got the "official" from the PPT office, and the members that can sign are:

base commander, commanding officer, captin or above, personnel administrative officer, NDHQ director general, NDHQ directore, NDHQ career manager

I asked as to whether a Lieutenant (N) could, but they just blinked at me.  ::)  Oh, and they can only sign for military personel and their dependents.        Anyway, enough outta me.  :)

T
 
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