Mendicino's call for RCMP to ban neck restraint not backed up by evidence: external panel

[OldSolduer]

I would actually think LEOs would be at a disadvantage in a scuffle. Restrictive uniform, vest, and duty belt that batman would be jealous of vs a drunk person in shorts and a t-shirt.

I totally get why they dog pile guys. Makes complete sense.

Add to the fight or flight mechanism we all have the combatant will have a dump of adrenaline in their system as well.

 

[QV]

I would actually think LEOs would be at a disadvantage in a scuffle. Restrictive uniform, vest, and duty belt that batman would be jealous of vs a drunk person in shorts and a t-shirt.

I totally get why they dog pile guys. Makes complete sense.

The LEO can't lose.

 

[brihard]

I would actually think LEOs would be at a disadvantage in a scuffle. Restrictive uniform, vest, and duty belt that batman would be jealous of vs a drunk person in shorts and a t-shirt.

I totally get why they dog pile guys. Makes complete sense.

The LEO can't lose.

Yup. Fair fights aren’t in the job description. We’ll usually do what we reasonably can to avoid hands on until we have a strong advantage either in numbers or the suspect choosing to be compliant. If the suspect chooses to initiate getting physical against one or two officers, you can bet your ass the officers involved aren’t gonna pull many punches. One bad punch that lands, and I could be incapacitated and disarmed. Even one bad twist of my knee and I could be dealing with long term career-altering disability.

Our tools have improved, and we have a lot of leeway to use them to avoid something worse. The new tasers rolling out in Canada (X7) are pretty sweet.

 

[Booter]

I recall from my PPSIC that carotid was for D/GBH only, and that was more than 15 years ago.

It’s been a while like you’re saying - I believe it was an early 90s change. Prior to that it was everything solution under physical control hard.

The big change in the use of force environment was the semi auto rollout and OC spray adoption caused a big swing in the continuums. In 1993 Edmonton City was grappling with taking away their recently adopted OC spray as someone had died in custody and OC spray was linked to the death. It was very “new” so they were considering removing it in response- all of this was going on around the same period professionalizing police use of force from cuffs/revolvers/saps

Even then the VNR was already scrutinized- owing to some bizarre things in the 80s (like some races were more prone to injury etc) But there was a significant series of changes to U of F and it was all “settled” into their positions around then.

This is 30 years ago though so I am a little fuzzy on some of the timings

 

[Brad Sallows]

Yup. Fair fights aren’t in the job description.

"I'd heard of a fair fight, and wanted no part in one."

Sorry, can't remember which novel it was.

 

[Booter]

Yup. Fair fights aren’t in the job description. We’ll usually do what we reasonably can to avoid hands on until we have a strong advantage either in numbers or the suspect choosing to be compliant. If the suspect chooses to initiate getting physical against one or two officers, you can bet your ass the officers involved aren’t gonna pull many punches. One bad punch that lands, and I could be incapacitated and disarmed. Even one bad twist of my knee and I could be dealing with long term career-altering disability.

Our tools have improved, and we have a lot of leeway to use them to avoid something worse. The new tasers rolling out in Canada (X7) are pretty sweet.

Uniforms have come a long way too. It’s a little easier now than it was in the ball hugger Dress pants and leather belts and forage caps.

 

[Haggis]

It’s been a while like you’re saying - I believe it was an early 90s change. Prior to that it was everything solution under physical control hard.
...

This is 30 years ago though so I am a little fuzzy on some of the timings

I've studied three different versions of the IMIM in 10 years with my agency. The latest version is quite similar to the first one I was introduced to around 2002.

 

[Booter]

I've studied three different versions of the IMIM in 10 years with my agency. The latest version is quite similar to the first one I was introduced to around 2002.

Right. Carotid hasn’t changed its position in 30 years. So like Brihard I think it’s spot is fine.

 

[KevinB]

"I'd heard of a fair fight, and wanted no part in one."

Sorry, can't remember which novel it was.

I'm more of a fan of "the only fair fight is the one you win"

 

[Haggis]

Right. Carotid hasn’t changed its position in 30 years. So like Brihard I think it’s spot is fine.

As do I. IMO it's a perfect "ambush" technique for a GBHD when a firearm would be inappropriate, such as to bring an end to a smurfing or when your partner is losing a ground fight.

 

[daftandbarmy]

As do I. IMO it's a perfect "ambush" technique for a GBHD when a firearm would be inappropriate, such as to bring an end to a smurfing or when your partner is losing a ground fight.

What about clubs? Can we still use clubs or is that a no go these days?

A good clubbing can solve alot of issues if done properly

 

[Haggis]

What about clubs? Can we still use clubs or is that a no go these days?

A good clubbing can solve alot of issues if done properly

Expandable batons, like those carried by most uniformed officers, can be used open (old style club) or closed (kubotan style). You need room to swing an open baton, something not always available. Even though it was big, I liked the verastility of the Mondanock PR-24 baton. But, it required a lot of practice to be used to it's maximum potential.

 

[brihard]

What about clubs? Can we still use clubs or is that a no go these days?

A good clubbing can solve alot of issues if done properly

You’ve gotta be able to articulate why it’s the appropriate intervention, but yeah. Expandable batons and public order riot batons are both still in use.

 

[KevinB]

Cattle Prod…

 

[medicineman]

You’ve gotta be able to articulate why it’s the appropriate intervention, but yeah. Expandable batons and public order riot batons are both still in use.

I take it using "Violence solved this problem finitely" wouldn't be articulating well enough?

 

[brihard]

I take it using "Violence solved this problem finitely" wouldn't be articulating well enough?

“Subject’s life choices improved briefly but markedly”

 

[daftandbarmy]

Here's a tough scenario...

Details of fatal police shooting of Indigenous man on Meares Island released

Police watchdog says Julian Jones was shot in 2021 after a Taser failed to stop him from advancing on officers.

www.timescolonist.com

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

The problem with Chokes is it takes a fair amount of training to actually get good at understanding how to apply them properly.

A year+ of consistent Jiu-Jitsu/Combat Judo training would give someone a decent base. But the base needs to be maintained.

I think it's better for Police to train with a Gi in traditional Judo/BJJ as opposed to MMA. The Gi simulates if someone is wearing clothes or a coat and opens up a world of possibilities for throws, tosses and chokes that can be applied.

 

[KevinB]

Here's a tough scenario...

Details of fatal police shooting of Indigenous man on Meares Island released

Police watchdog says Julian Jones was shot in 2021 after a Taser failed to stop him from advancing on officers.

www.timescolonist.com

Not really.
Chalk that up to do stupid things win stupid prizes.

It’s very easily articulated as to why the RCMP Officer shot the individual.

 

[KevinB]

The problem with Chokes is it takes a fair amount of training to actually get good at understanding how to apply them properly.

A year+ of consistent Jiu-Jitsu/Combat Judo training would give someone a decent base. But the base needs to be maintained.

I think it's better for Police to train with a Gi in traditional Judo/BJJ as opposed to MMA. The Gi simulates if someone is wearing clothes or a coat and opens up a world of possibilities for throws, tosses and chokes that can be applied.

The problem with throws is it can allow the suspect access to items on the members belt/vest. Judo like most martial arts tends to deal with 1:1 encounters, which isn’t something that generally occurs in LE. Control needs to conducted while allowing the officer to not to be solely focused with both hands for long periods of time.