Lanyards- which side is battle honour/dishonour?

[pbi]

The only listing for Canadians is the riot in Britian after WW1.

The repatriation riots in Southern England after the war? You're right that that occurred, but what unit actually carries a "dishonour" from it? The PPCLI mutinied just after the end of WWI: we don't carry any dishonour for that. Come on, guys....... Cheers.

 

[George Wallace]

....... They Gunners got their GUNS away, but left the Carriage. The part between the gun and the Horses. If you look at old cannon. The gun could be pulled with carriage or direct for quick action. The carriage is where 2 other gunners sit, two next to the gun.
Some Gunner and I were talking about this in the mess once. In the end we were both right.
As for units in battle. You may not find any true Canadian Regts, that FU'd.

Recce 41

The gun is mounted on the Carriage.  You may be thinking of the Limber?

I think your Gunner friend needs some history.  I seriously doubt that Morrison's men dismounted a 12 Pdr from the carriage, other than loading it onto a train or ship; definitely not in the heat of battle.  Morrison did empty his ammo wagons into his Limbers (44 rds in the Limber and 4 more rds carried on the gun carriage) and sent the empty wagons off to join the Baggage Train.  In all accounts, Morrison's two guns (No 5 and No 6) limbered up and moved off after each engagement.  There is no mention of limbers being left behind.  The exhausted Gunners had to dismount and assist the exhausted horses pull the guns up the ridge.  In fact, Morrison's two guns were later sent into action with the rest of the Guns after getting fresh mounts from his ammo wagons.  His two guns would fire over 240 rds out of the total  563 rds of Arty fired in the whole battle.  

The only carriage that was left, was that of the Colt MG.  Sgt Holland rode off with the jammed Colt and placed it on the Limber of the No. 6 Gun.


GW

 

[George Wallace]

There are numerous mentions of Units rioting throughout the history of the CF.  In WW II there was a major riot in the interior of BC, involving several units.  The PEIR were involved there, surprisingly, as were several Artillery units.  None of them have any form of dishonour marring their names other than the usual News releases and of course the numerous charges that would have been laid on individuals.

GW

 

[Michael Dorosh]

An entire brigade of the Canadian Third Division mutinied while still in France just after the armistice.  There was no "dishonour" involved.  Nor was there a riot in that case, they simply refused an order to march, still upset about the handling of their brigade during the last 100 days.  Stuff happens.

I would like to see concrete proof of a unit being made to wear a sign of "dishonour".  There's absolutely no advantage to making your soldiers do that. 

We could have made every member of the Canadian Airborne wear an albatross around their neck, I suppose,, but it was far easier, and politically expedient, to just disband the Regiment.

The British certainly did that in Normandy; at least one battalion, according to Hastings, was disbanded due to morale problems.  But no "dishonour" applied to the Regiment.

 

[Recce41]

George
Thanks: I have a picture of some old cannons. And they list the lumber as where the ammo is. The carriage is listed as the part that has the front two wheels and seats, the cannon is on the gun cradle. And others has the whole front and rear as the carriage. It seemed to depend on the yr on the cannon. And the ammo wagon is listed as the Bty wagon also hooked to the a gun carriage? Sorry, my mistake.

As stated, it is only British,etc Regts I have found. The only listing is of Canadian is the Blk Watch in MONS. It is from a letter from Currie, I found in a book printed in 1919. It has that "some men of the Regt did dishonour a fine Regt by their actions". It was my Grand Father's, he was given to him for service in WW1. I do remember something about this on a docmentary.

 

[pbi]

OK----I think we're agreed here. While it is probably true that some Canadian units have done some things that were not particularly honourable, and may actually have been "dishonourable", there is no proof that any unit in our Army today officially carries any mark or distinction or practice   attributed to bad behaviour. Looks like I keep my money. Nyaah nyaah.  :dontpanic: Cheers.

 

[DaveK]

The Airborne Regiment was disbanded because of "disgraceful conduct" check this link. 

http://collection.nlc-bnc.ca/100/201/301/hansard-e/35-1/149_95-02-09/149OQ1E.html

 

[Michael Dorosh]

The Airborne Regiment was disbanded because of "disgraceful conduct" check this link. 

http://collection.nlc-bnc.ca/100/201/301/hansard-e/35-1/149_95-02-09/149OQ1E.html

Thanks for the news flash....

 

[pbi]

The Airborne Regiment was disbanded because of "disgraceful conduct" check this link. 

Right you are, but go back and check the conditions I set. We're talking about existing units carrying traditions or distinctions as as result of dishonour. It is a bit hard for the CAR to carry or perpetuate anything, isn't it? Cheers.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Back to lanyards: from the Australian Gunner's Old Comrades' Association:

http://tibbsau.com/gnrs0004.html

The origin of the White Lanyard

    The lanyard had a genuine purpose in war. It was originally a piece of cord, approximately a metre in length, used to secure a jack-knife which was issued to both the artillery and the cavalry. The knife had a number of uses; the blade was for cutting loose horses which became entangled in the head and heel ropes of the picket lines, and the spike of the knife was used as a hoof pick, for the removal of stones from horses hooves. A fuse key was also attached to the lanyard.

    Hanging loose, the lanyard soon became dirty and for the day-to-day barrack routine it looked out of place on an otherwise smart uniform; so for peace time purposes the lanyard was plaited, and whitened with Blanco, to match both the white bandolier and the white waist belt worn by the gunners of the day. The lanyard was worn on the left shoulder with the end containing both the knife and fuse key tucked into the left breast pocket.

    In 1920 the lanyard was moved to the right shoulder, simply because of the difficult problem of trying to remove the knife from the pocket underneath the bandolier. By now the bandolier and belt, worn with battle dress, had long ceased to be white, whilst the lanyard remained so.

    The knife was removed in 1933 and the lanyard then became a straight cord, worn purely as an ornamental item of dress.

    In 1955 it was, for a short time, reintroduced in the plaited style, but it quickly went back to the straight lanyard currently worn today.

    There is simply no truth either to any other popular story regarding the Artillery's white lanyard.

 

[c/sgt_warren]

Actually, I think Canadian Regts have more colours than just those: for example in the PPCLI we have French Grey. And, if I'm not mistaken, in the Commonwealth system Royal Blue is actually the facing colour for "Royal" Regiments, not gold. IE: RCR, RCA, CME, R22eR, RRegtC, etc.    

Also, I would really like to see proof that ANY Canadian Regiment, Branch, or Corps actually preserves any item of dress, tradition or practice that is intended as a "dishonour". I keep hearing this stuff, but I have yet to see any proof. Why would anybody bother preserving an embarassment? The only case of this I have ever heard of, and I can't recall the unit now, was that of a British Regt that, during Wellington's Peninsular Campaign, broke into a convent and pillaged and raped. The sentence (IIRC) passed by the War Office was that the Regt'l band, in perpetuity, was to play hymns at sunset each day. Other than that I'm not aware of a substantiated example.

Cheers.

Um...i may be wrong about this...but i believe that there is a regiment of some sort in the UK that has to wear their berets with their unit brass on the back because they retreated when ordered not to...im not claiming that i am an expert...im just passing along what i have heard...please try to refrain from getting mad at me...:cowers in fear:...

Slainte;
Nate

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

You're thinking of the Gloustershire Regiment:

The Battle of Alexandria was won by a remarkable action fought by one of Britian's oldest and proudest Regiments, the Glosters. Based in Gloucestershire, the Regiment has a long and proud history, and a unique distinction. They are the only Regiment in the world to wear a badge on the front of their caps and on the back. This "Back Badge" is worn in recognition of the fact that the Regiment saved the expeditionary force from the French Cavalry at the Battle of Alexandria when, drawn up in a two rank formation, the rear rank was reversed and fired volley after volley at a French Cavalry formation which had succeeded in getting behind the British forces.

At the time, it was thought by most commanders that it was impossible to reverse a rank in this way on a battlefield and maintain discipline. The Glosters proved that the impossible was possible - and that the rate of fire they could maintain like this in both directions could be deadly! Their action broke the cavalry charge and saved the expeditionary force which went on to drive the French out of Egypt.

Hardly a dishonour...

 

[geo]

well.... with respect to Lanyards - no one is authorized to wear em with their field dress anymore.... except those cords that the officers use so as not to lose their Pistols

Honour & Dishonour?...
there's the Imperial Black Watch that, after some battle, felt such shame that they cut off the toe of their "spatts"..... a little while later - they pulled it out of the fire for someone and feeling they had "restored" their honour, sewed that missing toepiece onto the back of the Spats... tradition was carried on by the Cdn Black Watch

 

[pbi]

well.... with respect to Lanyards - no one is authorized to wear em with their field dress anymore.... except those cords that the officers use so as not to lose their Pistols

Honour & Dishonour?...
there's the Imperial Black Watch that, after some battle, felt such shame that they cut off the toe of their "spatts"..... a little while later - they pulled it out of the fire for someone and feeling they had "restored" their honour, sewed that missing toepiece onto the back of the Spats... tradition was carried on by the Cdn Black Watch

Really? Are you sure that the spat (short for "spatterdash") didn't actually have an open toe to begin with? Look at any picture of any British unit from, (let's say..), the Napoleonic period, and I think you will see that spats had no toes. Did thay all share the "shame" of the Black Watch?

I stand by my original challenge: somebody provide proof that a Canadian unit, ANY Canadian unit, actually wears any item on its uniform as a result of a "battle dishonour". I bet you can't, because I bet it's all just mess talk and regimental rumour.

Cheers.

 

[Steel Badger]

Really? Are you sure that the spat (short for "spatterdash") didn't actually have an open toe to begin with? Look at any picture of any British unit from, (let's say..), the Napoleonic period, and I think you will see that spats had no toes. Did thay all share the "shame" of the Black Watch?

I stand by my original challenge: somebody provide proof that a Canadian unit, ANY Canadian unit, actually wears any item on its uniform as a result of a "battle dishonour". I bet you can't, because I bet it's all just mess talk and regimental rumour.

Cheers.

backing PBI on this one........it's like saying that the "double dice" on the glen's of some highland regiments was created to represent the 93rd Sutherland Highlanders at Balaclave....people still offer that one up DESPITE the fact theat the 93rd were wearing the "dice" before the crimean war..

Most of the wee uniform bits that give rise to these rumours can be laid at the door of the "quest for fashion" conducted by  Unit Commanders in the 17th - 19th centuries...

SB

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Really? Are you sure that the spat (short for "spatterdash") didn't actually have an open toe to begin with?

Cheers.

The Black Watch spat is demonstrably different from that worn by every other regiment - I've seen them.  They have a notch cut where no other unit does.  (Though some Cameron Highlanders in Winnipeg seem to have gotten Black Watch spats after the reg force battalions stood down and they were dispersing the kit).  I have not seen an explanation for this anomaly, but it does in fact exist.  Don't know when the pattern changed, but it is not a simple manufacturer's variant.

 

[Steel Badger]

Again Mike


Its a great example of how a "fashionable difference" in unit kit becomes invested with "tradition" over time......

SB

 

[bearded1]

Our unit had no history of lanyards for NCOs, (verboten in my time actually) regardless of dress, and we had never thought about them. As instructors on leadership courses with Foot Guards and Highlanders, we felt a bit left out of the whole lanyard thing (not to mention the pace stick thing...), being gunners.  But hey, gunners know lanyards, so we went to our stores locker, grabbed the extra ones, crimped the s-hooks over, and threw those on.  Heck, they were olive drab.  Then we would arbitrarily choose a shoulder to wear them on (switching from week to week as whim dictated, and concocting suitable reasons why), and when asked what it was attached to, we would proudly display our big black wooden balls. This caused no end of consternation with our infantry brethren.

Thanks for the discourse, haven't thought about that in along time.

Ubique,
Regan

 

[geo]

Disposal of 2 Bn worth of highland rig did result in a lot of reserve highland units wearing "hand-me down kit" that does not correspond. I do remember the L&R Scots of Pembrooke wearing BW Tartan (cause the price was right)....

Getting back to the Spats..... will have to give my friends at the BW a call when I get back into town but, from what I was told, the torn off toe piece, to them, was turned from a disshonour into an honour.... hence the toepiece finding it`s way to the back.... as a reminder.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Disposal of 2 Bn worth of highland rig did result in a lot of reserve highland units wearing "hand-me down kit" that does not correspond. I do remember the L&R Scots of Pembrooke wearing BW Tartan (cause the price was right)....

Getting back to the Spats..... will have to give my friends at the BW a call when I get back into town but, from what I was told, the torn off toe piece, to them, was turned from a disshonour into an honour.... hence the toepiece finding it`s way to the back.... as a reminder.

Lanark and Renfrew Scottish have always worn Government Tartan.  So have the Black Watch.  The Argylls wear Government tartan also, but wear box pleats instead of knife pleats.  It's all the same tartan - Government, not "Black Watch."  So the L&R got a good deal since they wear the same tartan as the Black Watch, always have from what I can tell - see the 1943 War Dress Regulations.  Or page 85 of DRESSED TO KILL.
The footnote by the tartan listing for the Lanarks in the 43 WDR says "The kilt is of the same pattern as is worn in The Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment) of the British Army"