Infantry training in Air Force

[brihard]

The problem in Canada is legislation.

It is really difficult (impossible?) to have armed security guards in Canada, outside of Armoured Car Services And Nuclear Power Plants

Unless- they are badged police officers.

The National Defence Act does allow for soldiers (I use that in the generic sense of CAF pers) to carry weapons and use armed force to defend a defence establishment. But not Armed security guards. If it did, we would have had armed Commissionaires, years ago.

That makes this pretty hard to do unless you are paying police salaries. Or we get the NDA amended.

There are precedents. Off the top of my head I can think of the Parliamentary Protective Service, Royal Canadian Mint protective services, nuclear plant security… it can be done. I don’t know if DND could establish an armed security force under regulatory authorities? But any long term solution would want to ensure that whatever is created has protective officers who have the appropriate legal authorities to not just be armed, but to have other legal authorities e.g., search, detention, etc. DCAA regulations might give a lot of this?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

There are precedents. Off the top of my head I can think of the Parliamentary Protective Service, Royal Canadian Mint protective services, nuclear plant security… it can be done. I don’t know if DND could establish an armed security force under regulatory authorities? But any long term solution would want to ensure that whatever is created has protective officers who have the appropriate legal authorities to not just be armed, but to have other legal authorities e.g., search, detention, etc. DCAA regulations might give a lot of this?

I had forgotten about PPS and the Mint. Thanks.

It has been a decade since I last looked into this in a serious way, but I don’t recall either DCAA or the NDA having enabling provisions to form an armed security force for DND.

It could be fixed, with political will.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I had forgotten about PPS and the Mint. Thanks.

It has been a decade since I last looked into this in a serious way, but I don’t recall either DCAA or the NDA having enabling provisions to form an armed security force for DND.

It could be fixed, with political will.

If only there were a MND - with a background in policing - who might look upon such a proposal favorably

 

[MJP]

I recall it , too, but don’t know if it is still a thing.

I recall them being there to essentially run IBTS/range training as needed but that might have been a 17 Wing construct only. There were a few wayward Patricias and a PRes folks there FWICR

 

[SeaKingTacco]

If only there were a MND - with a background in policing - who might look upon such a proposal favorably

That might be more than we can hope for…

 

[Blackadder1916]

Maybe we need to create a similar force to handle those 'short of nuclear conflagration' type tasks, like airfield security? Viz:

I think this is the way, at least domestically. Either create a new DND police and security force with civilian employees, or create a new federal division within the RCMP to provide security at DND establishments.

Sort of like the RCMP Special Constables that policed airports back in the day.

 

[markppcli]

I think this is the way, at least domestically. Either create a new DND police and security force with civilian employees, or create a new federal division within the RCMP to provide security at DND establishments.

Overseas, we are going to either have to create an RCAF Regiment, or certain Army PRes units will have to be op tasked.

BTW, techs will still have to carry weapons. Sorry, Quirky.

Or just make it a rotating task for a Bn. I nominate 3 Vandoo, that way we’ll at least know where anything stolen is being kept.

 

[brihard]

Sort of like the RCMP Special Constables that policed airports back in the day.

I think that getting full police officers to fill this task would be a poor use of full police officers. It’s a security job, not a policing one. And- good luck shaking more bodies loose from the RCMP any time soon. They’re struggling to fill their own existing protective commitments, to the point that they just ran a hiring pool for off the street applicants for an abbreviated training program and right into protective policing. I don’t think dozens or a couple hundred Mounties are suddenly going to become available for airfield security work.

 

[ueo]

I recall them being there to essentially run IBTS/range training as needed but that might have been a 17 Wing construct only. There were a few wayward Patricias and a PRes folks there FWICR

Think they also advised on the various base defensive emplacements, weapons etc. Howsomeever they were mostly ignored with "It'll never happen here." attitude.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Think they also advised on the various base defensive emplacements, weapons etc. Howsomeever they were mostly ignored with "It'll never happen here." attitude.

I found it somewhere between infuriating and hysterically funny. That some people when I suggested using reservists as part of a dedicated Base Defence were opposed because that would require training to occur on weekends and evenings.
Because as we all know nothing ever happens after business hours....anyway .

 

[KevinB]

I think that getting full police officers to fill this task would be a poor use of full police officers. It’s a security job, not a policing one. And- good luck shaking more bodies loose from the RCMP any time soon. They’re struggling to fill their own existing protective commitments, to the point that they just ran a hiring pool for off the street applicants for an abbreviated training program and right into protective policing. I don’t think dozens or a couple hundred Mounties are suddenly going to become available for airfield security work.

The original Special Constables were not full fledged RCMP, I don’t think they had gone through Regina at all, other than retired members who rejoined to sit around at a desk or booth.
IIRC they really just had weapons training and some basic UOF law and training around that.

 

[brihard]

The original Special Constables were not full fledged RCMP, I don’t think they had gone through Regina at all, other than retired members who rejoined to sit around at a desk or booth.
IIRC they really just had weapons training and some basic UOF law and training around that.

Airport policing is a police of jurisdiction issue. E.g., Pearson is Peel, Montreal is SPVM, Vancouver is Richmond RCMP… Separate from that, the RCMP do have federal investigative sections at each airport, but that’s for things like drug interdictions and such, not security.

 

[AmmoTech90]

The 80s were a dangerous time in Ottawa to walk past an embassy. The special constabls outside the embassies had a number of NDs. Including potshots at squirrels with a MP5, and putting a 9mm round through the side of the 'bullet proof' cabin they sat in.

 

[Blackadder1916]

The original Special Constables were not full fledged RCMP, I don’t think they had gone through Regina at all, other than retired members who rejoined to sit around at a desk or booth.
IIRC they really just had weapons training and some basic UOF law and training around that.

The airport Special Constables did their training in Regina but it was a shorter course. They were paid less than a regular and were hired for specific locations; i.e., someone who signed up for Gander International Airport couldn't be posted to Calgary International without their agreement. When the program first started in the early 1970s, their enrolment standards were also lower; could be shorter, wear glasses and be married (back then prospective mounties - and a lot of other police, e.g. Nfld Constab - needed to be much bigger, fitter, single and male). Some used it as a stepping stone and later transferred to the regular ranks which required them to go back to depot to upgrade so that they could wear the scarlet.

This article from the Globe and Mail back in 1972 was about the switch at PIA.

New force is planned for airport. (1972, Dec 11). The Globe and Mail (1936-) Retrieved from https://www.proquest.com/historical-newspapers/new-force-is-planned-airport/docview/1241643907/se-2

 

[MacNav63]

Airport policing is a police of jurisdiction issue. E.g., Pearson is Peel, Montreal is SPVM, Vancouver is Richmond RCMP… Separate from that, the RCMP do have federal investigative sections at each airport, but that’s for things like drug interdictions and such, not security.

That was a change from the 90s fiscal crisis. Until the 1994 National Airports Policy, policing airports was a federal responsibility, as were the airports themselves which were run by the Airports Branch of Transport Canada. I was in TC Public Affairs at the time and we were rapidly developing ways to download to provinces and municipalities everything we could. Under the airports policy we identified 26 airports of national significance and created local airport authorities for all of them. The others were just sold off or otherwise left to fend for themselves. As part of all that the feds handed off policing to local authorities.

 

[Kirkhill]

There are precedents. Off the top of my head I can think of the Parliamentary Protective Service, Royal Canadian Mint protective services, nuclear plant security… it can be done. I don’t know if DND could establish an armed security force under regulatory authorities? But any long term solution would want to ensure that whatever is created has protective officers who have the appropriate legal authorities to not just be armed, but to have other legal authorities e.g., search, detention, etc. DCAA regulations might give a lot of this?

That sounds an awful lot like Vital Point Security - Challenge and Commitment 1987.
Disappeared along with 12 Subs and hundreds of Bv206s.

 

[BrianWL]

The original Special Constables were not full fledged RCMP, I don’t think they had gone through Regina at all, other than retired members who rejoined to sit around at a desk or booth.
IIRC they really just had weapons training and some basic UOF law and training around that.

actually the Specials did go to RCMP Depot - on a shorter duration course than the regular member 6 month program. can't recall what the executive/diplomatic security S/Constables did, I think maybe.......3 months. Native Specials had something between 6 and 3 months. they binned both by the way. don't recall why ....but they all went back to Regina to top up their basic training course.

 

[QV]

Or we charge MPs with providing base and operational security and have RCMP provide policing functions for the base, PMQs and CFNIS. I'm sure we can man a lot of WASF tasks with MPs that are currently running speed checks if you're 10kph over.

All other RCAF trades end up as surge force to the WASF on a contingency basis for crisis response.

If the RCAF wants to create a RCAF Regiment, then they'll have to decide what capability they want to divest. PYs are a zero sum game and no one else is going to give them up for a new gate guard trade.

Taking 'police' out of the Military Police would be the best COA. The MPs should be folded into DGDS and be the deployable and domestic Force Protection unit of the CAF providing everything from airfield security, WASF, BASF, closed base security, to convoy escorts and camp/FOB security and defence in theatre. They would still have or increase their specialized functions such as TASO, CP, dog handling, etc, perhaps absorb the maritime security gig also. But ditch the policing and turn that over to the RCMP. Unit disciplinary matters are handled by the unit and crime is handled by the RCMP. The CAF could then significantly reduce it's reliance on the Commissionaires and save big dollars.

Done. No more AVN Techs pulling a night shift at the WASF guard shack while fighter maintenance suffers.

 

[dapaterson]

Any consideration needs to include the CAF requirement for deployable security as well.

 

[Blackadder1916]

The 80s were a dangerous time in Ottawa to walk past an embassy. The special constabls outside the embassies had a number of NDs. Including potshots at squirrels with a MP5, and putting a 9mm round through the side of the 'bullet proof' cabin they sat in.

One of the Turkish diplomats who survived his assassination attempt back then was (sort of) a neighour (he was still living in the same apartment complex where I lived when I came back to NDHQ after commissioning). I was familiar with him because he had been hospitalized at NDMC following his shooting and spent several months there recovering, along with his RCMP security detail (complete with their MP5s). While at NDMC, he had a Med A assigned strictly to his care; his accommodation was also segregated from the rest of the ward, only specially cleared staff were permitted down that wing. Though it wasn't the same ward as mine, I did have to do a few days with him when his regular Med A was away on leave or course. I knew where he lived because, after he had been discharged from hospital, I was visiting a colleague from work (I was by then working downtown at NDHQ) to lend him one of my rifles. I was buzzed into the building, gone up in the elevator and got out on my friend's floor holding what was easily identified as a rifle case. What my colleague hadn't told me was that there was an RCMP security detail for that Turkish diplomat on the same floor. While they did stop me, luckily one of his detail recognized me from NDMC so they didn't detain me very long.

So while it may have been exciting wild west times in the 80s, after a while sitting in a box it could become boring as noted in this article from the Calgary Herald following a 1995 break-in at 24 Sussex Drive.