Employment Equity in the CAF ( merged )
- Thread starter Canuck_25
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Canuck_25......Where did you get this information?
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Canuck25, you obviously failed to read this official board policy.
http://army.ca/forums/threads/17343.0.html
You've been quite prone to flapping at the gums since you got here. Consider this a warning; don't give any input on stuff that you know jack shit about....
http://army.ca/forums/threads/17343.0.html
You've been quite prone to flapping at the gums since you got here. Consider this a warning; don't give any input on stuff that you know jack shit about....
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Its simple, the forces are desperate for visible minorites and women to join the CF. Their numbers are very low. Same as in the RCMP. White males are constantly applying but visible minorities arent. So, they visit areas where they are a mojority (reserves, urban areas) to encourage recruitment. For example, the CF set a program up at a native reserve near my area to encourage recruitment of the native population. Its simple, the CF wants to be seen as multicultural and they will pass exceptions racaily just like the Universities do for native students and the RCMP. Its a fact and those who have trouble believing it should take a look around.
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NavyGrunt
Guest
Its true- its a block recruting system- you compete with your peers, not the entire group. Im not sure about your sarcastic tone or the number you quoted but-
(these are the blocks- not an order of ease, not in any particular order)
For the RCMP its -visible minority
female visible minority
female Caucasion
Caucasion male
This is to ensure diverisity in the forces. I dont think its a big deal do your best and you'll have lots of doors open to you.
(these are the blocks- not an order of ease, not in any particular order)
For the RCMP its -visible minority
female visible minority
female Caucasion
Caucasion male
This is to ensure diverisity in the forces. I dont think its a big deal do your best and you'll have lots of doors open to you.
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No, its not quite that easy there, sunshine. You stated a "fact"....
Well, if your a visible minority, female or are well active, you coul make it in with an 78% average.
..and I asked where you got this "fact", your answer was just a song and dance,and not a good one, so I'll ask again,
Where did you get this information?
Well, if your a visible minority, female or are well active, you coul make it in with an 78% average.
..and I asked where you got this "fact", your answer was just a song and dance,and not a good one, so I'll ask again,
Where did you get this information?
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Canuck 25 I am in the Forces and I don't see that and I have "looked around"
:
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Canuck_25 said:
To refute with some anecdotal evidence:
My sister was toying with the idea of attending RMC 2 years back, and was told that despite being female, being active in sports and even teaching martial arts (showing leadership potential) and being fluent in french, since she had a 78% average she'd have to go to St. Jean for a year to prep for RMC. Her marks were too low to get straight in. There is, then, a bar you have to meet -- or at least there was 2 years ago.
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CivU
Guest
It is interesting how a thread intended to help persons interested in entering RMC and/or the ROTP program deteriorated toward a criticism of affirmative action policies subverting the fairness of the CF recuriting process. Howver, I digress...
It would seem to me Canuck that if you feel adamantly oppossed to the recruiting methods you cite as being used by the RCMP and CF, you should develop some knowledge based on actual affirmative action scholarship. In many cases, visibile minority status is not seen as a means to enter below the accepted standard, but instead as a tangible skill to be exercised in the work environment. For example, a native person working in an isolated region of Canada for the RCMP may be better suited to dealing with the policing dynamics of that area due to their similarities with the local population, their cultural background, their experiences in relation to the environment their dealing with. Hiring a visibile minority in this case would not be to fill a superficially driven quota system but to serve an important purpose. I'm not going to address the CF as a means to generate an example, but if what you say is true, could the same stream of thought not apply to certain circumstances the Canadian Forces finds itself...
It would seem to me Canuck that if you feel adamantly oppossed to the recruiting methods you cite as being used by the RCMP and CF, you should develop some knowledge based on actual affirmative action scholarship. In many cases, visibile minority status is not seen as a means to enter below the accepted standard, but instead as a tangible skill to be exercised in the work environment. For example, a native person working in an isolated region of Canada for the RCMP may be better suited to dealing with the policing dynamics of that area due to their similarities with the local population, their cultural background, their experiences in relation to the environment their dealing with. Hiring a visibile minority in this case would not be to fill a superficially driven quota system but to serve an important purpose. I'm not going to address the CF as a means to generate an example, but if what you say is true, could the same stream of thought not apply to certain circumstances the Canadian Forces finds itself...
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I don't know about the figure being quoted, but the idea is bang on. It's called a systemic remedy, and was ordered by the Canadian Human Rights Commission in the early 1990's. The CF has seldom, if ever, met it's CHRC mandated recruiting targets for employment equity. Without a doubt, applicants to the CF who fall into this category at the very least are supposed to recieve more expiedited consideration for their applications. There was, at one time, some discussion of a cash incentive for succesful applicants. Good for morale eh? I'll dig up the cases tomorrow and supply the info. IIRC, the target figure was 14 percent "all inclusive."
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The entire notion of affirmative action is a load of horseshit. It is antithecal to the idea of promotion and opportunity based upon merit and it is inappropriate in a democratic society where citizens should be judged "not by the colour of their skin but by the content of their character...."
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It has its uses, and without it we wouldn't see some of the more positive aspects of diversity [can't think of any right now] But on the whole, I think it simply feeds into the whole entitlement issue we discussed a few months back. The darkest cloud is as stated by Infanteer, that is to say ... when competency takes a back seat to equity. Infanteer, I gather you do not disfavour equal opportunity, but are opposed to engineered outcomes for the purposes of achieving equality nirvana? LOL.
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CivU
Guest
"The entire notion of affirmative action is a load of horseshit..."
Before making a hasty generalization perhaps one should identify the two distinct forms of affirmative action. The one suggested above as a "load of horseshit", in which persons are fast tracked through application processes to fill quotas that are representative of their percentage of the entire population, has been the fundamentally problematic form of affirmative action; however, there exists another facet of affirmative action policy that is difficulty to argue against.
The removal of, or assistance of persons to overcome, barriers that exist within society that favour one group over another in the workplace are necessary to the establishment of a more egalitarian society. There can be no doubt that discrimination on the groups of sex and ethnicity have and continue to be factors in the lower wages of women (roughly 75 cents on every dollar a man makes) and the underemployment of qualified but recently immigrated minorities. Programs that assists persons affected by these obstacles attain an equal footing in the job market are, im my opinon, difficult to argue against. That being said, generalizing affirmative action as negative often is indicitive of the prevailing attitudes that led to a need for such policy in the first place...
It's up to persons more knowledgable on the recruiting process to determine where CFRG policy fits into these two dynamics.
Before making a hasty generalization perhaps one should identify the two distinct forms of affirmative action. The one suggested above as a "load of horseshit", in which persons are fast tracked through application processes to fill quotas that are representative of their percentage of the entire population, has been the fundamentally problematic form of affirmative action; however, there exists another facet of affirmative action policy that is difficulty to argue against.
The removal of, or assistance of persons to overcome, barriers that exist within society that favour one group over another in the workplace are necessary to the establishment of a more egalitarian society. There can be no doubt that discrimination on the groups of sex and ethnicity have and continue to be factors in the lower wages of women (roughly 75 cents on every dollar a man makes) and the underemployment of qualified but recently immigrated minorities. Programs that assists persons affected by these obstacles attain an equal footing in the job market are, im my opinon, difficult to argue against. That being said, generalizing affirmative action as negative often is indicitive of the prevailing attitudes that led to a need for such policy in the first place...
It's up to persons more knowledgable on the recruiting process to determine where CFRG policy fits into these two dynamics.
K
koach
Guest
CF recruiting has specific programs and methods for exposing aspects of the military to those demographics who would not normally think of the military as a career choice. These methods are used as an attractions tool only.
When an applicant is ready to be submitted for a job offer, a file is sent to Borden. This file consists of your transcripts, previous military service (if any), Aptitude test scores, Express Test scores, Medical category, your interview evaluation, and a few other things depending on the entry plan. That's it!
The enrolment standards for each entry plan DO NOT WAIVER AND ARE NOT BASED UPON ONES RACE. The only difference in standards is that the fitness requirements are based on gender.
When an applicant is ready to be submitted for a job offer, a file is sent to Borden. This file consists of your transcripts, previous military service (if any), Aptitude test scores, Express Test scores, Medical category, your interview evaluation, and a few other things depending on the entry plan. That's it!
The enrolment standards for each entry plan DO NOT WAIVER AND ARE NOT BASED UPON ONES RACE. The only difference in standards is that the fitness requirements are based on gender.
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CivU said:
That's a very flowery definition for a hazy concept that in reality seems to be ill-defined. Please specify "barriers that exist within society that favour one group over another in the workplace" and how it pertains to the Military.
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Affimative action has been in the Candaian Forces since 1970 it was called
Francaphone Bypass. Any oldtimers will remeber it well.
Regards
Francaphone Bypass. Any oldtimers will remeber it well.
Regards
C
CivU
Guest
"That's a very flowery definition for a hazy concept for a practice that seems to be ill-defined. Please specify "barriers that exist within society that favour one group over another in the workplace" and how it pertains to the Military."
I think Koach described the barriers I suggested quite appropriately. Exposure to the military may be an issue for any number of reasons, be it cultural or geographical. In areas or ethnic groups of limited engagement with the CF (for lack of a better term) many persons may not even recognize the CF as being an option and oppurtunity. This may especially be the case for visible minorities (who studies show are often times underemployed for their level of qualifications) who already possess degrees and could enter through DEO, or persons in isolated areas who cannot access a recruiting centre as easily as someone in a more urban area. In addition, groups largely unrepresented in the CF may not have any influence from family or friends to consider joining, as much as say, a person residing in the maritimes (an area of high CF recruitment) would possibly have. To seek out and expose the oppurtunities within the CF to a group who may not otherwise consider the military as an option is hardly taking away from someone in a community like Halifax or Edmonton where the presence of the CF is much more distinguishable.
Hopefully that clarifies the matter for you...and as I said before, I didnot intend to specificially discuss its relationship to the CF as much as offer you some insight into the general concept of Affirmative Action that you hastily considered to be entirely "horseshit".
I think Koach described the barriers I suggested quite appropriately. Exposure to the military may be an issue for any number of reasons, be it cultural or geographical. In areas or ethnic groups of limited engagement with the CF (for lack of a better term) many persons may not even recognize the CF as being an option and oppurtunity. This may especially be the case for visible minorities (who studies show are often times underemployed for their level of qualifications) who already possess degrees and could enter through DEO, or persons in isolated areas who cannot access a recruiting centre as easily as someone in a more urban area. In addition, groups largely unrepresented in the CF may not have any influence from family or friends to consider joining, as much as say, a person residing in the maritimes (an area of high CF recruitment) would possibly have. To seek out and expose the oppurtunities within the CF to a group who may not otherwise consider the military as an option is hardly taking away from someone in a community like Halifax or Edmonton where the presence of the CF is much more distinguishable.
Hopefully that clarifies the matter for you...and as I said before, I didnot intend to specificially discuss its relationship to the CF as much as offer you some insight into the general concept of Affirmative Action that you hastily considered to be entirely "horseshit".
K
koach
Guest
quote taken from the CF Personnel Newsletter
Another good article on this subject can be found here:
http://www.journalism.ryerson.ca/online/mosaic/ohcan/ssanmiguel.html
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