Destroyer Replacement Program

[Ex-Dragoon]

NCS_ENG, whiskey and Ex-D:

Is the 6000 tonne Danish Absalon C&C ship a viable option as a platform?  Disregarding systems fit as I assume you will be modifying that regardless of what hull/machinery/controls you will be buying.

I am not a big Absalon class fan for major combat roles, so I will bow out of this tangent.

A couple of links:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/60993.0.html

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/28146.0.html

 

[Kirkhill]

I think you answered my question anyway Ex-D.  I take it that she is built to civ-mil specs rather than to Mil Std.

Despite what I have said in the past about applications for civ-mil for Domestic vessels or support roles I fully understand your position wrt a Destroyer or a Frigate.  Cheers.

 

[Sub_Guy]

The vessels mentioned in this thread are all decent and they are available now.  What are things going to look like in a decade?  It takes too long to get hulls in the water, by the time the last CPF hit the water there was quite a bit outdated technology on board.  We could make a decision on what we want now, but 10 years from now we could be sitting with new outdated ships.

Next year the Halifax will be 20 years old.......

 

[axeman]

What are the damage control, living quarters and sustained heavy use characteristics of this class? Can they take a beating? It seems to me that, unlike the Germans, we are now likely to put our ships in harms way more often, over longer periods of time, and travel longer distances while working them through evolution after evolution [probably with smaller crews, I might add]. 

And most importantly, is the saur kraut and schnitzel locker big enough to hold real food?   

the German Frigate is a well laid out plan  I spent just under a week on this spring . decent sized berths , fair sized work spaces  a large sized beer holder.  some negatives but on the whole a fairly decent ship although like others have mentioned its also 10 yrs old at this time . if we could remake the HFX class useing what knowledge we have gained between now and then we could coe upo with a fairly good platform

 

[geo]

Dolphin,
"as an example"
Start building a basic ship design with delivery of one or two every other year for a period of 10 years.
Put in new technology as the new stuff becomes available - so the last one produced would be a Mk 5 with all the current bells and whistles.  As the older ships come up for refits (eg TRUMP) you put in the new gear that the new ships are getting.

 

[NCS_Eng]

Dolphin,
"as an example"
Start building a basic ship design with delivery of one or two every other year for a period of 10 years.
Put in new technology as the new stuff becomes available - so the last one produced would be a Mk 5 with all the current bells and whistles.  As the older ships come up for refits (eg TRUMP) you put in the new gear that the new ships are getting.

What you've just described is (was) the SCSC project. Except rather than upgrading every new ship with the latest technology, the ships would have been built in flights of 4ish and then upgraded for the next flight.

Also some of you are seriously downplaying the difficulty and risks involved with trying to buy into another ship building program. Its not as simple as going to warships R Us and saying "I'd like four F124s please"... the negotiations with the IP holders could take years and there would be questions of who was authorized to do maintenance, not to mention the cost of Canadianizing (and the time it would take in our already overloaded shops). There were some solid reasons the staff check went with Option D, and not all of them were political. Furthermore the biggest timesink as far the capital procurement goes is our very very broken process, and that won't change regardless of what option we use.

Lets be honest here for a second; if we really really wanted to get some new hulls, tomorrow, the only real option would be leasing Arleigh Burkes, which we could do relatively cheaply, and quickly (within a few years anyway) but we would not be allowed to even think about doing any type of maintenance outside a US yard. Relying on another country to schedule and perform required maintenance on "our" ships is unacceptable to anyone in the naval community and that's been the dealbreaker for years.

There is no magic process that will have any option C or D ships out any sooner than the mid to late 'teens, and since we expect our ships to have a 40 year life span +, I'd rather do it right than do it quickly.

One final point, there has been no official decisions made about the final disposition of the 280s so anything you have read about Ship X being decomissioned in year X is pure Rumint.

 

[kratz]

       I know that this has been covered in other threads, but it is worthwhile to note here also.  Option 'D' would work well if ship procurment wouldn't be so contract based. Having a permenent yard, even of modest size, to produce a continuous but low volume of hulls is not to much to ask from one of the top 10 economies in the world, and the one with the most coastline. 

Agreed. The problem is the military is seen as a public service and companies will want to compete for contracts. We have seen this problem with the service contracts with the subs.

 

[Sub_Guy]

I do realize you can't just go to a store and pick these things up.  It has been said numerous times, that our feast or famine way of doing things when it comes to shipbuilding is bad for all involved.

It will be interesting to see what happens with JSS, Felex, and APOS in the years to come, it would be nice to keep some yards working

 

[NCS_Eng]

I do realize you can't just go to a store and pick these things up.   It has been said numerous times, that our feast or famine way of doing things when it comes to shipbuilding is bad for all involved.

It will be interesting to see what happens with JSS, Felex, and APOS in the years to come, it would be nice to keep some yards working

Yeah, everyone involved hates the feast/famine way of doing it, and SCSC was such a step in the right direction... maybe the 24B $ pricetag scared off the government (the DRP has a very tentative budget of around 8B)

 

[NavyShooter]

I think regardless which way we go, we need to get something DONE SOON.

The lead times on building warships is waaay too long to sit around with our thumbs up our butts waiting....it's not like we can hop the production line like we did with the C-17's....

NS

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

I think regardless which way we go, we need to get something DONE SOON.

The lead times on building warships is waaay too long to sit around with our thumbs up our butts waiting....it's not like we can hop the production line like we did with the C-17's....

NS

then we have to do something about our recruiting, attrition, and retention.....that's going to be a huge challenge...in order to sail them.

 

[geo]

There is / will be no quick fix.
IMHO It's gotta be a complete institutional remake
If we have no ships we need no sailors......

..... In some respects, having a green or blue CDS will have this result for the navy....  I don't want to say that the Head navy guy is not pressing his point with the CDS but, from my perspective, you guys aren't going anywhere at this time.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I think most of us realized a long time ago that if it was not green related in the Navy, or the boys in green could use it then in most cases it would be of lower priority.

 

[cameron]

I think regardless which way we go, we need to get something DONE SOON.

The lead times on building warships is waaay too long to sit around with our thumbs up our butts waiting....it's not like we can hop the production line like we did with the C-17's....

NS

+1

 

[a_majoor]

As a somewhat out of the box solution, would it not be possible to do the "Atlantic Conveyor" thing to container ships today?

Container ships are fairly large and fast (for merchantmen), and it seems to me that the upper deck could be given over to an impromptu flight deck, while various containers would be used either to house weapons, equipment or ammunition, or serve as pedestals for things like a CIWS (ok, not a container, but a base the same size and shape). Other containers would serve as bases for sensors, and rows of empty containers would line the hull to serve as improvised armour protection and provide a certain amount of reserve bouyancy (at least enough to row clear of the thing when it is hit).

There is no question about range, and accommodations would probably not be too out of line (remember, ISO's are 20' shipping containers with some wiring and a window, and bunkers and line houses are a few steps down from that.

From a distance, the "Canadian Conveyor" would even resemble a container ship, until it unmasks the electronic sensors or launches a helicopter. While not a real warship, it could be used to fill in some gaps while we are waiting.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

A container ship does not have the DC facilitiesthat a destroyer generally has, not to mention would have a massive RCS that radar homing missiles would love . Accepting second rate equipment in Navy is about the same as its in the Army. You don't paint a ship grey and call it a destroyer because you want it to be, its a destroyer (insert other type of ship) because that is its role or function.

Now a merchant cruiser designed to support not replace warships in times of hostilities might have a function in the 21st century.

 

[Kirkhill]

Now a merchant cruiser designed to support not replace warships in times of hostilities might have a function in the 21st century.

Would you like to flesh out that idea a little more?

 

[geo]

Considering how long we have waited before deciding on the replacement of Provideur / Preserver / Protector, methinks that our navy will paint itself into a corner & we will probably have no alternative but to purchase one or more commercial grade supply ships to "fill the gap".  The alternative is what?...
1 keeping the old ships in use.
2 do without
3 mooch off our allies
4 ?  "warning - fresh paint"

 

[cameron]

Would you like to flesh out that idea a little more?

I too find the idea intriguing Ex-Dragoon, would like to hear it in greater detail.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Work in progress. I am sailing but will add more when I get a chance:

Ex Dragoons Idea for a 21st century merchant cruiser

Take one container vessel out of trade, put empty containers in the holds/act as armour

On Upper decks install containerized ops room/separate container for sensors/ew equipment, countermeasures, palletized ESSM fwd/aft (8-16 missiles per pallet), mid ships install palletized RAM/Phalanx for Close in defence, 25mm/40 mm guns (1 focsle, 1 aft, 1 midships port/stbd).

Crude flight deck could be built aft using containers for a light helicopter. Containers could be used to store spares, armaments and fuel. 


As you can see it would have very little ASuW capbility, ASW might be provided by the helicopter and AAW night help protect it and a couple its consorts. If we ever sail in a convoy system though, it would be a realitively cheap way to help protect several more ships plus add to the envelope of protection the ESSM would provide.