CT-114 Tutor

[Quirky]

Keeping the tutor or 431 around are two different questions.

You are missing the point….we are on the verge of a world war. An air demonstration team is what seizes our HQ?

Canada will be irrelevant in the next world war, an air demonstration team or not.

 

[Uwish]

You are missing the point….we are on the verge of a world war. An air demonstration team is what seizes our HQ?

well if that is indeed true our input will be negligible with or without an air demo sqn.

 

[Good2Golf]

I would just add. For pilots while yes there will always be a shortage we have more than enough airframes than pilots right now. Sad state of affairs indeed! Strategic airlift et al are full but we currently have less than 50 fighter jocks....for the upgraded fleet of 35 (CF-18) with AESA radar etc.

So the fighter jock and instructor heavy Snowbirds team (there is a but a single non-fighter/non-pipeline 2CFFTS instructor pilot flying demo) are composed almost entirely of strained pilot communities (CF-18 and instructor). The very communities that are not full. That doesn’t really go to counter dapaterson’s point about the not insignificant impact on RCAF operations resulting from preferentially filling non-operational positions with otherwise operational pilots.

 

[Baz]

They will be around until at least 2030..major upgrades underway...

yes this is a CT-114 431 sqn is the only unit flying them and this is going to be the new layout...until someone in gov writes a cheque.

View attachment 82757

2 x G600 TXi GDU-1060 at $20,000 - $30,000 each, plus a GTN-625 at $10,000 (why didn't they include a 2nd integrated NAV/COMM), looks like a GNC-255 at <$10,000, plus a GMA-350 audio panel at around $3,000. So somewhere around $75,000... I wonder how much the NRE and install will be? Certainly a lot more than when an owner operator does it. But definitely a bargain for the capability.

I wonder how well they'll do with military aircrew and techs who historically haven't been as "gentle" on their equipment as an owner operator would be.

For the record, I'm in the "why do we still keep 431" camp... I guess it serves to continue to convince the RCAF internally it is "world class" at something???

 

[Uwish]

All great points. I have no answers for you. But taking a demo pilot of x years and saying hey we have this upgraded 18 go fly it isn't how it works. At least not in the AF. As we all know if you want a pointy edge it takes years of training, now if you are saying disband 431 so we can train more grey jet types ..you may have an argument. But since I was in (yes a VERY long time ago) we were and have always been short of pilots. Not so much in Strategics and Transport (fck we only had 130's then, and I guess we still only do minor 5 heavy birds), I highly doubt this would make any real strategic difference in our new 'verge of WW3' type scenario.

But as of RIGHT now you gain...12 pilots? takes min a year through B course, and most are age limited now from 431. This is a funding and recruiting issue that many armed services are facing, not just the CAF. So even if you disband 431 now and re task aircrew...almost NO incremental improvement on strategic or tactical capability within next 24 to 36 months IF it all works out perfectly...in some new WW3 scenario

 

[Good2Golf]

Actually aside from Snowbird 1 and two other older pilots, the pipeline instructors have plenty of runway left on their careers. The commentary from many others is not one focused on immediately replenishing gaps in the fighter force, but the persistent load that 431 puts in an otherwise constrained establishment of pilots (and techs and supporters). If one compares the ‘just 12’ pilots for example to the current fighter force, that’s 24% of that community at the moment…almost 1/4 of em entire community is lot really a ‘just’…

 

[Baz]

Except one thing... how does it read on the Wings. It reads, like it has for a long time, that the "show" is more important than the operations. Especially when the show is fed by the fighter guys, who complain they are short louder than most, and who have been looked at by other communities with a sidewards glance for pretty much ever.

So which is more important: optics internally, or the show externally?

 

[Uwish]

fair enough but you now realize we are talking about 12-3 = 9 pilots, we can staff the 34 upgraded grey jets we have...for me personally that is the issue we have only 34 grey jets worth anything!

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Actually aside from Snowbird 1 and two other older pilots, the pipeline instructors have plenty of runway left on their careers. The commentary from many others is not one focused on immediately replenishing gaps in the fighter force, but the persistent load that 431 puts in an otherwise constrained establishment of pilots (and techs and supporters). If one compares the ‘just 12’ pilots for example to the current fighter force, that’s 24% of that community at the moment…almost 1/4 of em entire community is lot really a ‘just’…

It is really the techs that I want back on Op Sqns most of all.

Last count I saw had well north of 100 techs at 431 Sqn. All Level As/Cs from their home fleets.

Think about that for a second or two…

 

[Quirky]

Last count I saw had well north of 100 techs at 431 Sqn. All Level As/Cs from their home fleets

There are less than 60 people total, from CO down to Cpl, including the civies. You’re lucky to get 20-25 techs on paper.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

There are less than 60 people total, from CO down to Cpl, including the civies. You’re lucky to get 20-25 techs on paper.

That is interesting. I saw a contact list for the Sqn a few years ago. I counted over 100 technicians…

 

[NavyShooter]

So....dumb question....the CT-114 Tutor was originally a jet trainer.

Why not shift the Snowbird Mission over to that?

Getting the red/white tails in the air with pilot trainees (and IP in the other seat) teaching new pilots how to fly? Cut the airshow circuit in half, and add a training cycle to help build the pool of pilots.

I know it's not that simple, but if the problem is mainly a lack of pilots, and you've got a platform that was designed to train new pilots...that isn't training new pilots...maybe it should be re-oriented a bit?

 

[Quirky]

That is interesting. I saw a contact list for the Sqn a few years ago. I counted over 100 technicians…

I have a good friend there now, they most definitely don’t have 100 technicians. It’s to a point now where they are having 2LT pilots awaiting training work servicing to free up the qualified techs. It’s a pri 4 posting to Saskatchewan on 50+ year tech. Not exactly desirable.

The techs you see on the airshow circuit are essentially ~80% of the unit. People left behind are there to keep the lights on.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I have a good friend there now, they most definitely don’t have 100 technicians. It’s to a point now where they are having 2LT pilots awaiting training work servicing to free up the qualified techs. It’s a pri 4 posting to Saskatchewan on 50+ year tech. Not exactly desirable.

The techs you see on the airshow circuit are essentially ~80% of the unit. People left behind are there to keep the lights on.

Fair enough- they already cleaned house, then.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

You are missing the point….we are on the verge of a world war. An air demonstration team is what seizes our HQ?

Same airframe was used for ground attack, so mount some pylons on them......

 

[armrdsoul77]

Same airframe was used for ground attack, so mount some pylons on them......

Yes exactly. All hands on deck for ww3. And after the fallout settles we can have at it with sticks and stones.

What's with the world war talk? Seems to be creeping into mainstream news stories.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Yes exactly. All hands on deck for ww3. And after the fallout settles we can have at it with sticks and stones.

What's with the world war talk? Seems to be creeping into mainstream news stories.

Technically the world is at war, but mostly disjointed conflicts and many of them just under boiling.

 

[Uwish]

So....dumb question....the CT-114 Tutor was originally a jet trainer.

Why not shift the Snowbird Mission over to that?

Getting the red/white tails in the air with pilot trainees (and IP in the other seat) teaching new pilots how to fly? Cut the airshow circuit in half, and add a training cycle to help build the pool of pilots.

I know it's not that simple, but if the problem is mainly a lack of pilots, and you've got a platform that was designed to train new pilots...that isn't training new pilots...maybe it should be re-oriented a bit?

There are tons of issues with Phases 1 through 3 in scheduling etc. Most people may not know, but this is the last year for the HAWK jet trainer and we have NO replacement. Most pilot trainees are headed to EU or US to undergo some phases of training which adds to the burden and length of time in the pipeline. It really is quite frustrating..it went from 2 yrs about 25 yrs ago from basic to wings, now it's on average 5 years.

There is a great podcast called "The pilot project podcast" its a current RCAF pilot on Med leave assigned to his now secondary duty and he interviews current and former pilots from all AC types including scissor machines.

One of the best ones regarding recruiting is Episode 20, he interviews the OC of RCAF recruiting you get the picture right from the horses mouth so to speak.

The other great episode is #17 DEO entry for pilot freeze.

You can find it on any podcast platform I use Spotify, but its everywhere. It pretty much lays out the dirty laundry on why it is taking so long to train pilots....

I highly recommend a listen, they are audio only and about an hour each.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

There are tons of issues with Phases 1 through 3 in scheduling etc. Most people may not know, but this is the last year for the HAWK jet trainer and we have NO replacement. Most pilot trainees are headed to EU or US to undergo some phases of training which adds to the burden and length of time in the pipeline. It really is quite frustrating..it went from 2 yrs about 25 yrs ago from basic to wings, now it's on average 5 years.

There is a great podcast called "The pilot project podcast" its a current RCAF pilot on Med leave assigned to his now secondary duty and he interviews current and former pilots from all AC types including scissor machines.

One of the best ones regarding recruiting is Episode 20, he interviews the OC of RCAF recruiting you get the picture right from the horses mouth so to speak.

The other great episode is #17 DEO entry for pilot freeze.

You can find it on any podcast platform I use Spotify, but its everywhere. It pretty much lays out the dirty laundry on why it is taking so long to train pilots....

I highly recommend a listen, they are audio only and about an hour each.

Funny…the one thing we do not need more of at our unit is pilots. We are full. The OJT hopper is full.

What we need are ACSOs, techs and AESOp- in that order.

 

[Baz]

What we need are ACSOs, techs and AESOp- in that order.

Does anybody actually need an ACSO?

So there are no hard feelings, I was one; not a good one, but one nonetheless.