CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21

[Donald H]

For example, many/most pro-life people believe that abortion is wrong because they believe killing people is wrong, and they consider unborn babies to be people.

When stated in those terms, the only answer has to be that 'killing people is 'right' in Canada.

That wouldn't be my preference for stating the case but in any event it's not going to change in Canada. Do social Conservatives imagine that they 'can' change it?

 

[LittleBlackDevil]

When stated in those terms, the only answer has to be that 'killing people is 'right' in Canada.

That wouldn't be my preference for stating the case but in any event it's not going to change in Canada. Do social Conservatives imagine that they 'can' change it?

Some, perhaps many/most do.

I am a social conservative myself, but I think it is foolish to think that. As noted by Brad Sallows, it would never happen that SoCon MPs formed a majority in any parliament such that they could change abortion laws. But even if, for the sake of argument, we consider a hypothetical situation where they did. It still would not change anything because juries would just acquire via "jury nullification" as they did back in the 80s, perhaps more so ... and I doubt that prosecutors would even prosecute or police would make arrests. So it would be an empty gesture to change the laws.

I believe it was this thread (many pages ago) where I expressed frustration with SoCons in this regard despite being one myself.

 

[Donald H]

Some, perhaps many/most do.

I am a social conservative myself, but I think it is foolish to think that. As noted by Brad Sallows, it would never happen that SoCon MPs formed a majority in any parliament such that they could change abortion laws. But even if, for the sake of argument, we consider a hypothetical situation where they did. It still would not change anything because juries would just acquire via "jury nullification" as they did back in the 80s, perhaps more so ... and I doubt that prosecutors would even prosecute or police would make arrests. So it would be an empty gesture to change the laws.

I believe it was this thread (many pages ago) where I expressed frustration with SoCons in this regard despite being one myself.

And so we can agree that Conservatives aren't going to change the law on abortion in principle. May I suggest that a position for Conservatives can become limiting a woman's right to an abortion. There's lots of territory in that position that is left to be claimed.

What is the social Conservative's position nowadays? Does it even exist?

 

[shawn5o]

I wish Mr O'Toole well. Will he and the CPC be able to turf the PM and the LPC? I do hope so but he has to fight three leftist parties.

 

[LiveFightMove]

Some, perhaps many/most do.

I am a social conservative myself, but I think it is foolish to think that. As noted by Brad Sallows, it would never happen that SoCon MPs formed a majority in any parliament such that they could change abortion laws. But even if, for the sake of argument, we consider a hypothetical situation where they did. It still would not change anything because juries would just acquire via "jury nullification" as they did back in the 80s, perhaps more so ... and I doubt that prosecutors would even prosecute or police would make arrests. So it would be an empty gesture to change the laws.

I believe it was this thread (many pages ago) where I expressed frustration with SoCons in this regard despite being one myself.

Today I learned what a SoCon was.. and learned that I am one also.

I don't think a sole SoCon party would ever win, but it's frustrating to have a party that goes "erm.. umm.." on topics.

 

[LiveFightMove]

And so we can agree that Conservatives aren't going to change the law on abortion in principle. May I suggest that a position for Conservatives can become limiting a woman's right to an abortion. There's lots of territory in that position that is left to be claimed.

What is the social Conservative's position nowadays? Does it even exist?

For me personally a life is a life. My wife and I got an ultrasound at 9 weeks and could see the baby's (a little bean size) heartbeat going at 170BPM. IMO, a woman's viewpoint of "my body, my choice" is wrong, because that's just another body inside of yours...

There are many options if you can't provide or don't want to. If you didn't want to get pregnant there are measures to prevent so.

Edit: (removed a sensitive viewpoint without firm opinion on the matter)

 

[Navy_Pete]

Social conservative means what in Canada? That part of the conservative agenda appears to have vanished into thin air. Or at least it's become unspeakable.

How about taking the abortion issue as an example? In Canada the socially acceptable position on abortion is to allow abortions but to attempt to discourage it by government taking a sociallly responsible position of attempting to eliminate a woman's need for an abortion. That could mean government provided health care support for pregnant women who are victims of rape, for instance.

The only problem being, the Liberals and NDP have already claimed that position, leaving the social conservatives nothing but something similar to the US conservative position.

This can be applied to more issues than just abortion!

What to do for Canada's social Conservatives? Just lay their social issues aside?

I'm going to straight up call BS on that false equivalence; providing health care during a pregnancy that results from rape is not the same as allowing an abortion. It's forcing a victim to continue to be victimized and probably compounds the trauma by forcing the woman to carry a totally unwanted baby to term.

Big difference as well between being anti-abortion and pro-life; if you just care about protecting the fetus right up until it's born but don't want to do anything to support the mother/child after that, you're anti abortion. Pro-life is a cradle to grave position, and would include a focus on everything from child care, education, health care etc. Forcing someone to have a kid from a rape seems pretty brutal, and can't see that turning out well for either the mother or the kid.

O'Toole's vague promises to the socons has me pretty skeptical of his ability to keep the oil/water philosphies under the big tent together. On one hand, there are a bunch of "small c" conservatives who are socially progressive, and there is also the wing that wants to roll back social laws 30+ years. Those two aren't compatible, and personally can't support a party like that out of fear that they will throw some bones to the socons to keep the fragile alliance together.

 

[Jarnhamar]

For me personally a life is a life. My wife and I got an ultrasound at 9 weeks and could see the baby's (a little bean size) heartbeat going at 170BPM. IMO, a woman's viewpoint of "my body, my choice" is wrong, because that's just another body inside of yours...

Part of the problem is this narrative that's pushed where if you're anti-abortion then you're this religious nutbar who probably hates women's rights.

In Canada abortion is legal at all stages of the pregnancy. Some people are uncomfortable with that.
The abortion issue falls under the mantra you're entitled to your own opinion as long as it agrees with mine.

 

[Donald H]

For me personally a life is a life. My wife and I got an ultrasound at 9 weeks and could see the baby's (a little bean size) heartbeat going at 170BPM. IMO, a woman's viewpoint of "my body, my choice" is wrong, because that's just another body inside of yours...

If you experienced a tramatic event that caused the pregnancy, an abortion isn't going to erase what happened. There are many options if you can't provide or don't want to. If you didn't want to get pregnant there are measures to prevent so.

In Canada it is still my hope that we can have a rational and decent discussion on the abortion issue. But first off we need to set the necessary parameters in that a woman's right to choose is not going to change, because it's unacceptable to change it!

Having said that, the discussion must become one in which the 'need' for an abortion is eliminated as much as we possibly can.
That is, IMHO, the only way the Conservative agenda on abortion can succeed at least in part.

Other countries take an extreme position which results in killing more babies!




:cheers:

 

[X Royal]

I wish Mr O'Toole well. Will he and the CPC be able to turf the PM and the LPC? I do hope so but he has to fight three leftist parties.

I believe the fight for the CPC will not be with the left but the other 2 right parties the PPC and Wexit in the next election.
Vote splitting may be their downfall.

 

[LittleBlackDevil]

And so we can agree that Conservatives aren't going to change the law on abortion in principle. May I suggest that a position for Conservatives can become limiting a woman's right to an abortion. There's lots of territory in that position that is left to be claimed.

What is the social Conservative's position nowadays? Does it even exist?

Good question.

I don't think there's an easy, clear-cut answer because SoCons are not all in agreement on what constitutes "social conservatism". And as I think you allude to in asking whether it exists, it has changed over the years as well. I would say that, broadly-speaking, "the social conservative's position" is pro-life/anti-abortion at minimum and to some extent. That, frankly, may be the common denominator. I think generally a favour for the traditional nuclear family and an opposition to marriage that does not fit that paradigm. I don't think any SoCon would actually advocate making homosexuality illegal, but they would object to LGBTQ propaganda being taught in schools (opinions will differ on what constitutes "propaganda" and what is necessary stuff for children to learn in school).

For myself, I agree with Navy_Pete in his distinction between anti-abortion and pro life, broadly (although he and I may disagree on to what extent government can and should be involved in the pro-life things he lists). As a SoCon myself I certainly would prefer to see an approach that attempts to tackle the factors that make people want to have abortions by building the economy, giving support to single mothers, etc. As stated earlier in this thread, simply outlawing abortion is at best a fool's errand that would never accomplish anything positive no matter what side of the spectrum you're on.

 

[LittleBlackDevil]

I believe the fight for the CPC will not be with the left but the other 2 right parties the PPC and Wexit in the next election.
Vote splitting may be their downfall.

This may or may not be the case.

I believe it's been calculated that the PPC cost the CPC at least 8 seats in the last election if memory serves, perhaps more (I forget -- it may have even been in the 20s). However, on the other hand, I think that with Mr. Bernier losing his seat (and generally doing a poor job in the election, especially the televised debates), the PPC is essentially "DOA". Their chance to make a splash was 2019 and I doubt they will garner as many votes next time.

"Wexit" parties may be the bigger threat/problem.

 

[Donald H]

I'm going to straight up call BS on that false equivalence; providing health care during a pregnancy that results from rape is not the same as allowing an abortion. It's forcing a victim to continue to be victimized and probably compounds the trauma by forcing the woman to carry a totally unwanted baby to term.

Big difference as well between being anti-abortion and pro-life; if you just care about protecting the fetus right up until it's born but don't want to do anything to support the mother/child after that, you're anti abortion. Pro-life is a cradle to grave position, and would include a focus on everything from child care, education, health care etc. Forcing someone to have a kid from a rape seems pretty brutal, and can't see that turning out well for either the mother or the kid.

O'Toole's vague promises to the socons has me pretty skeptical of his ability to keep the oil/water philosphies under the big tent together. On one hand, there are a bunch of "small c" conservatives who are socially progressive, and there is also the wing that wants to roll back social laws 30+ years. Those two aren't compatible, and personally can't support a party like that out of fear that they will throw some bones to the socons to keep the fragile alliance together.

You've quoted me on something I said, but it's not really clear to me what that could be? FWIW, you've said nothing that I can disagree with. Your argument isn't with me.

I'll restate my position. I am opposed to abortions in the sense that all people of decency should be, in that no abortion is a desirable outcome. I am not opposed to a woman having a right to an abortion.

And now I'll once again attempt to 'butt out' of the conversation, unless I am misquoted.

 

[dapaterson]

Faith Goldy has denounced the takeover of the Conservative Party by a man who  "wants to widen the Big Blue Tent & make it a party for The Gay & immigrants." (sic).

Anyone who had "Wingnuts scream and flee the Conservative Party the day the result is announced" on your Canadian Politics 2020 bingo card...

 

[RangerRay]

Nope.  The PM must be a MP as they are the head of government.


https://www.canada.ca/en/privy-council/topics/structure/machinery-government/westminster-government.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westminster_system


EDIT: An MP is a Member of Parliament, which includes the Senate.  But Senators have only been named PM under exceptional circumstances; it is normally a member of the House of Commons.

Recently in BC, in the 2013 election, the BC Liberals won, but the Premier, Christie Clark, lost her seat in Vancouver-Point Grey. She was able to remain Premier while she ran in a by-election in Kelowna.

 

[QV]

Faith Goldy has denounced the takeover of the Conservative Party by a man who  "wants to widen the Big Blue Tent & make it a party for The Gay & immigrants." (sic).

Anyone who had "Wingnuts scream and flee the Conservative Party the day the result is announced" on your Canadian Politics 2020 bingo card...

That is crazy.  I've always thought of the CPC as a big tent party. 

 

[RangerRay]

I hope Mr. O’Toole does well. My biggest concern was that he ran as a “real conservative” (whatever that is) while he is a moderate much like Mr. McKay. It comes across as disingenuous.

 

[Remius]

Faith Goldy has denounced the takeover of the Conservative Party by a man who  "wants to widen the Big Blue Tent & make it a party for The Gay & immigrants." (sic).

Anyone who had "Wingnuts scream and flee the Conservative Party the day the result is announced" on your Canadian Politics 2020 bingo card...

If it takes someone like O’Toole to make that happen more power to him.  .

 

[Kilted]

Part of the problem is this narrative that's pushed where if you're anti-abortion then you're this religious nutbar who probably hates women's rights.

In Canada abortion is legal at all stages of the pregnancy. Some people are uncomfortable with that.
The abortion issue falls under the mantra you're entitled to your own opinion as long as it agrees with mine.

That's because no politician will touch the issue with a ten foot pole.  If I remember correctly it was the Conservatives under Kim Campbell that tried to regulate it, but it died with the election.

It would be interesting if the Supreme Court ever found that unborn babies were persons, and the women's rights argument went completely out the window.  It wouldn't be completely unprecedented, women themselves have only been legally considered to be persons for less than 100 years in Canada. 

 

[brihard]

I believe the fight for the CPC will not be with the left but the other 2 right parties the PPC and Wexit in the next election.
Vote splitting may be their downfall.

PPC were only relevant in six ridings, and that’s by a most generous interpretation. Bernier couldn’t even win his own seat, and has been getting whinier since.

The ‘Wexit’ crew, if they articulate a rational regionalism and eschew they fantasy of sovereignty, could become relevant the way the Bloc are. But that said, they have a ways to go before they can challenge the CPC for seats- and the route to that may be through a couple elections’ worth of vote splitting that could conceivably give the LPC a majority. Not sure they’ve thought their cunning plan all the way through.