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I am reminded of the following:
And the consequences of such plans:
All Things CAF and Covid/ Covid Vaccine [merged]
- Thread starter FormerHorseGuard
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And the consequences of such plans:
QV
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I'm going to come across as an ass but I'm going to say it anyways:
Based on what evidence exactly? Are you sitting at home, hooked up to a machine studying your immune response or did you just "know in your gut that it worked?"
I'm happy you took the Vaccine and you feel that it did something for you. My spouse just got COVID, has all her boosters and was on her ass for a week straight and is only on the mend now.
Meanwhile I haven't gotten the most recent booster, spent my entire days nursing her while continuing to go to work. I never isolated from her, never caught COVID and continued to work the entire time. We would spend her evening enjoying popsicles I bought while I made her soup and gave her the daily dose of Nyquil. I also tested myself daily just to be sure.
Does my personal anecdote somehow hold less merit than yours?
Here is a suggestion: if you want the vaccine or think you need it, get it. Otherwise, the pandemic is over and lets stop being hypochondriacs and get back to living life. Lets also stop projecting what we think others should be doing.
I've personally experienced and witnessed similar circumstances. Fully boosted colleagues are bed ridden for days and off sic for weeks. I've seen those without boosters fair far better, I've seen those without vaccines hardly affected. And I've also seen some unvaccinated get fairly sick too.
Since there are so many different experiences and outcomes, perhaps a forced mandate is the absolute wrong approach.
Quirky
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Our workplace is 100% inoculated with good portion who have one or two boosters. We still have people who are sick with covid, some who are not testing and just staying home because they don't feel well. Ironically, those who are religious with boosters, still wear masks when going outdoors in public and bathing in hand sanitizer on their desks are the ones who get sick the most.
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No that wasn't a deflection. It's impossible to know with certainty what COA was the best because only one COA was attempted and the others weren't tested. The Government chose which horse it wanted to back and then got on with it.
The only real comparison we have is between various different National and Sub-National bodies, the approaches they took and even then, the data is incomplete because of discrepancies in reporting, how deaths were accounted for, testing capabilities, treatment, government control, coverups, etc.
Take this researcher from UofT for instance:
Canadian COVID researcher defends underreported death data against Premier Moe's 'misinformation' claims
A Canadian researcher is defending her data showing COVID-19 deaths across the country could be under-reported by at least 50 per cent after Saskatchewan’s premier claimed it was “misinformation.”
She alleges that COVID deaths are underreported in Canada by at least 50%. Basically with the exact same mandates as other Countries, we end up with a significantly different outcome. The question becomes why?
Lets say we did underreport deaths? By accident or through negligence, lack of testing, etc and her stats are correct?
What would you say then?
@McG I'm not here to convince you, you appear to have made up your mind already. All I would ask is that you consider the possibility that you may not be 100% correct. Maybe you're 90% correct and you have room for a 10% amendment of your views?
QV
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If you refused the C19 vaccine you're getting kicked out still, but you won't need it to enroll. It seems to me the appropriate thing would be to allow those to continue to serve. If you want to discipline them for refusing a "lawful order" than fine, but dismissal seems excessive since you can now enroll without being vaccinated.
Sounds like a partial walk back while trying to save face.
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So for my personal anecdote, I had COVID and long COVID in the first wave (about 5 months before vaccines were out), and had zero improvement until I got the first vaccine. I'm still recovering, and finally starting to get lung capacity back, but I definitely was still down a quart when I got sick again, and still going through some testing to see if there was permanent damage. Previous to all that I was pretty healthy, ate well and had none of the risk factors or commobidities, so the last few years has really sucked, but at least I'm still functional, even if QoL has been impacted. I'm not being a hypochondriac; this has changed my day to day life. Others in high risk groups have just died, so could be worse.I'm going to come across as an ass but I'm going to say it anyways:
Based on what evidence exactly? Are you sitting at home, hooked up to a machine studying your immune response or did you just "know in your gut that it worked?"
I'm happy you took the Vaccine and you feel that it did something for you. My spouse just got COVID, has all her boosters and was on her ass for a week straight and is only on the mend now.
Meanwhile I haven't gotten the most recent booster, spent my entire days nursing her while continuing to go to work. I never isolated from her, never caught COVID and continued to work the entire time. We would spend her evening enjoying popsicles I bought while I made her soup and gave her the daily dose of Nyquil. I also tested myself daily just to be sure.
Does my personal anecdote somehow hold less merit than yours?
Here is a suggestion: if you want the vaccine or think you need it, get it. Otherwise, the pandemic is over and lets stop being hypochondriacs and get back to living life. Lets also stop projecting what we think others should be doing.
The evidence showing vaccination decreases hospitalizations across all age ranges is pretty clear, so reasonably confident to say that it was overall a positive impact.
Some people had chicken pox as a kid, and keep getting shingles as adults. Immune systems are complicated, but as near as I can tell for whatever reason I seem more susceptible than others to COVID, and entirely reasonable to assume, that based on evidence from the overall population, I faired better with the vaccination then I would have without it.
Anecdotes =/= evidence, and glad your spouse is okay and you didn't get sick, but your personal experience is just that. Similarly mine is just my own, but is consistent with the general trend shown by actual evidence. Your sample size is two, I'm looking at my own plus data of several billion people.
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I wonder if you killed anyone by passing it on? Hypothetically of course....
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I actually agree with this decision. At the time, the evidence suggested that vaccination was the best course of action.
I believe unlimited liability is sacrosanct and needs to be protected at all costs so I think it was a reasonable order given the circumstances.
People shouldn't get to choose which orders they follow and don't follow.
Quirky
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If I did, would I know? No. Would I care? No. You make decisions every day that's life and death. People dying from the flu is just bad luck and mother nature.
OldSolduer
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OK OK forgive the crayon eating velociraptor here BUT I thought the whole idea in a military was to follow lawful orders.
Or did that change?
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That is what he's saying,......maybe you need Crayon, Extra Strength at your age??
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I could have or I could not have but that's impossible to say. I think almost everyone has had COVID by now so that could be true for anyone. I don't actually know one person that's died of COVID. I was confined to a floating tin can for most of COVID so I technically spent probably the most time of anyone here "isolating"
.It's not a very good way to think about infectious diseases. Did you think like that before COVID? It's hubris to think that we could control a disease.
Thank you for the polite response and am sorry to hear of your struggles. Agreed that our anecdotes =/= evidence.
My issue is that the current debate is too simplistic in that it looks at Vaccination and Mandates in isolation and ignores other consequences of those decisions.
Every action taken has a consequence. You may save X # of people today from Factor A, but if that decision results in Y # of people dying tomorrow from Factor B? Did you actually save anyone or did you create problems in other areas that will have greater consequences later on?
Another personal anecdote which will perhaps explain my position a little better. My former partner is a Public Health Official, she did her PHD on Social Determinants of Health (SDH) so while we were still together, I had to listen to her talk about these issues a lot.
She used to bemoan the emphasis on investment in primary care vs public health. There are lots of studies that show that SDH are actually more important than healthcare interventions themselves in influencing health outcomes.
That's why I think it's wrong for us to place so much emphasis on vaccines. Vaccines are a tool, they aren't the only one.
For example:
Obesity/BMI appears to also be an important factor in COVID hospitalizations yet I don't see anyone really talking about that?
It should be even more of a concern because obesity actually increased over the pandemic:
Study sees significant BMI increase among children during pandemic
ANAHEIM, Calif. — A study found a significant increase in BMI among children seen during well visits at a hospital in Virginia in the initial year of the COVID-19 pandemic, most notably among Black females.
www.healio.com
Obese people twice as likely to die from Covid
www.telegraph.co.uk
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For example:
Obesity/BMI appears to also be an important factor in COVID hospitalizations yet I don't see anyone really talking about that?
It should be even more of a concern because obesity actually increased over the pandemic:
Study sees significant BMI increase among children during pandemic
ANAHEIM, Calif. — A study found a significant increase in BMI among children seen during well visits at a hospital in Virginia in the initial year of the COVID-19 pandemic, most notably among Black females.
Obese people twice as likely to die from Covid
www.telegraph.co.uk
I think we discussed it here at length a few months back? Though we would be a terrible example of a cross section of Canadian society.
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Essentially I think the problem is too big for us to understand. There are too many variables, too many inputs to manage.
I am not an antivaxxer, I've taken three vaccine shots and believe they are an important tool. But they weren’t the panacea for COVID everyone made them out to be. I am not convinced that repeated lockdowns were necessary and I'm not convinced that other Government interventions were necessary either.
The Omicron variant and the fact it ripped through the general population like a hot knife in butter did more to end the pandemic than any of the vaccines or other interventions did.
futurepensioner
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That is not what the CDS said in his message.
This is what was stated:
"For those small few who refused the COVID-19 vaccination under the previous directive, who have not received an accommodation and have not yet completed an administrative review, any remedial measure will remain on your files as a record of non-compliance with a lawful order. For those who have received a decision to release, proceedings will continue."
So, if you chain of command was lazy and/or slow to react, then you get to stay in. How is this equal justice for all?? Should be interesting.
daftandbarmy
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Anyone taking bets that we'll get a lock down for a National Christmas present from the Trudeaus?
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is urging Canadians to get their influenza and COVID-19 vaccines soon to avoid the need for additional health measures this winter.
Speaking at an announcement in Kanata, Ont. on Monday, Trudeau encouraged Canadians to ensure they receive the full complement of COVID-19 and seasonal flu vaccines.
"If we are able to get a high enough of level of vaccination, we reduce the danger of having to take other health measures to make sure that we're all safe and not overloading our hospitals," Trudeau said.
Trudeau urges Canadians to get their COVID, flu shots to avoid other health measures
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is urging Canadians to get their influenza and COVID-19 vaccines soon to avoid the need for additional health measures this winter.
Speaking at an announcement in Kanata, Ont. on Monday, Trudeau encouraged Canadians to ensure they receive the full complement of COVID-19 and seasonal flu vaccines.
"If we are able to get a high enough of level of vaccination, we reduce the danger of having to take other health measures to make sure that we're all safe and not overloading our hospitals," Trudeau said.
OldSolduer
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He can go pound sand. Him and his doctor.
I can’t see that happening, it would be a net loss in the polls. Remember his primary job is to get re-elected.
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Except that's a provincial, not federal, area of responsibility.
daftandbarmy
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