AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[MTShaw]

I thought you said you were out ?

I was going to run my mouth again but I’ll say this.
Frist, f@^king fanboys would lead casual army.ca visitors to believe Asterix as the best and only ship for the Navy. That is absolutely unequivocally untrue. Army.ca is entertainment but also educational. For something to be educational it has to be true.

The Asterix is a great but limited ship.

Y’all probably want me to shut up

 

[Halifax Tar]

I was going to run my mouth again but I’ll say this.
Frist, f@^king fanboys would lead casual army.ca visitors to believe Asterix as the best and only ship for the Navy. That is absolutely unequivocally untrue. Army.ca is entertainment but also educational. For something to be educational it has to be true.

The Asterix is a great but limited ship.

Y’all probably want me to shut up

We have freedom of expression in Canada, so no I don't wish you too shut up.

Why are you so emotionally concerned ASTERIX and her capabilities or lack there of ?

You get very worked up about this. Is it because you're attached to competing builder ?

No one here has claimed ASTERIX is perfect, but she's better than no tanker or bumming gas from a Chilean ship; and we have a bunch of sailors having a great experience and keep up RAS skills.

 

[Rainbow1910]

I will say that coming from some other largest amateurish and more public forums, it is very refreshing to see Davie worship being called into question here or even openly mocked. Personally I do not think Davie has done anything approaching enough good work to warrant such a reputation in the public. I don't think MTShaw is attached to any competing builder, that seems like an unwarranted cheap shot against their credibility. Somebody can get emotionally invested for other reasons besides some kind of corporate favoritism, being annoyed at "fanboying" around Asterix and Davie when in reality neither really deserve it seems like a potential reason.

 

[NavyShooter]

I'm not a fanboy of AST, but I have good reason not to trust things that come from the major Halifax based shipyard based on personal experience.

Having some ability to maintain capability, skills, training and sustain operations is better than not having it. I had a tour of AST just after she arrived in Halifax - it was very clear where the 'old' and 'new' parts of the ship were, and there was still a lot of work happening onboard to get her ready/finished.

It wasn't a perfect solution. Buying a new AOR back in about 2005 or so would have been the perfect solution, but no yard in Canada could build one back then, and the CAF's focus was AFG rather than AOR. The BHS promised in 2006-7 fell away as well.

In terms of what an AOR should be, the AST falls short.

In terms of being better than nothing, AST succeeds.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I will say that coming from some other largest amateurish and more public forums, it is very refreshing to see Davie worship being called into question here or even openly mocked. Personally I do not think Davie has done anything approaching enough good work to warrant such a reputation in the public. I don't think MTShaw is attached to any competing builder, that seems like an unwarranted cheap shot against their credibility. Somebody can get emotionally invested for other reasons besides some kind of corporate favoritism, being annoyed at "fanboying" around Asterix and Davie when in reality neither really deserve it seems like a potential reason.

What are the amateurish forums I keep hearing being mentioned?

To me its important to know who I am talking too. And when people don't fill out their profiles all one can do is ask questions.

I'm not a fanboy of AST, but I have good reason not to trust things that come from the major Halifax based shipyard based on personal experience.

Having some ability to maintain capability, skills, training and sustain operations is better than not having it. I had a tour of AST just after she arrived in Halifax - it was very clear where the 'old' and 'new' parts of the ship were, and there was still a lot of work happening onboard to get her ready/finished.

It wasn't a perfect solution. Buying a new AOR back in about 2005 or so would have been the perfect solution, but no yard in Canada could build one back then, and the CAF's focus was AFG rather than AOR. The BHS promised in 2006-7 fell away as well.

In terms of what an AOR should be, the AST falls short.

In terms of being better than nothing, AST succeeds.

Bingo. She's better than nothing. And I can tell you the sailors we send to her absolutely love their time with her.

 

[MTShaw]

We have freedom of expression in Canada, so no I don't wish you too shut up.

Why are you so emotionally concerned ASTERIX and her capabilities or lack there of ?

You get very worked up about this. Is it because you're attached to competing builder ?

No one here has claimed ASTERIX is perfect, but she's better than no tanker or bumming gas from a Chilean ship; and we have a bunch of sailors having a great experience and keep up RAS skills.

When the first person came in here trying to trump the benefits of Asterix as better or even compatible than the JSS for I thought it was weird because it was untrue.

Whoever posted the fifth or sixth comparison: this time with ammunition, it is fanboyism.

There is no competing builder for JSS: the only yard building JSS is Seaspan.

It can work as a training ship to a point. The public does not know which position must be filled with Federal Fleet. I don’t know much about the Chilean other than the Navy Rents it too. Is their no Canadian training on the Chilean ship. If that ‘s the case than for the Navy’s purpose they are the same.

 

[MTShaw]

What are the amateurish forums I keep hearing being mentioned?

To me its important to know who I am talking too. And when people don't fill out their profiles all one can do is ask questions.



Bingo. She's better than nothing. And I can tell you the sailors we send to her absolutely love their time with her.

MV Asterix; she’s at least better than nothing.

 

[Halifax Tar]

When the first person came in here trying to trump the benefits of Asterix as better or even compatible than the JSS for I thought it was weird because it was untrue.

Whoever posted the fifth or sixth comparison: this time with ammunition, it is fanboyism.

There is no competing builder for JSS: the only yard building JSS is Seaspan.

It can work as a training ship to a point. The public does not know which position must be filled with Federal Fleet. I don’t know much about the Chilean other than the Navy Rents it too. Is their no Canadian training on the Chilean ship. If that ‘s the case than for the Navy’s purpose they are the same.

Can you provide direct quotes to support your post ?

MV Asterix; she’s at least better than nothing.

Absolutely.

 

[MTShaw]

Can you provide direct quotes to support your post ?

What post?

 

[Halifax Tar]

When the first person came in here trying to trump the benefits of Asterix as better or even compatible than the JSS for I thought it was weird because it was untrue.

Whoever posted the fifth or sixth comparison: this time with ammunition, it is fanboyism.

There is no competing builder for JSS: the only yard building JSS is Seaspan.

It can work as a training ship to a point. The public does not know which position must be filled with Federal Fleet. I don’t know much about the Chilean other than the Navy Rents it too. Is their no Canadian training on the Chilean ship. If that ‘s the case than for the Navy’s purpose they are the same.

This post. You make some claims about fanboyism; and that someone has claimed Asterix is comparable than JSS. Can your provide quotes to support?

 

[MTShaw]

Can you provide direct quotes to support your post ?



Absolutely.

This post. You make some claims about fanboyism; and that someone has claimed Asterix is comparable than JSS. Can your provide quotes to support?

I’m not going to repost mine and others post on army.ca. That would be poor form, might get me banned for a while, and it might create a black hole. Do what people do: read up the sub-forum.

This last one, where people came down about ammunition, was the first time i used fanboy. It’s like a series of people come here to compare Asterix to JSS. But it comes down to Asterix not meeting the navy’s AOR Requirements.

It’s a damning indictment when Asterix‘ major benefit that it’s better than Nothing.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I’m not going to repost mine and others post on army.ca. That would be poor form, might get me banned for a while, and it might create a black hole. Do what people do: read up the sub-forum.

This last one, where people came down about ammunition, was the first time i used fanboy. It’s like a series of people come here to compare Asterix to JSS. But it comes down to Asterix not meeting the navy’s AOR Requirements.

It’s a damning indictment when Asterix‘ major benefit that it’s better than Nothing.

That's why the quote function exists.

 

[suffolkowner]

I’m not going to repost mine and others post on army.ca. That would be poor form, might get me banned for a while, and it might create a black hole. Do what people do: read up the sub-forum.

This last one, where people came down about ammunition, was the first time i used fanboy. It’s like a series of people come here to compare Asterix to JSS. But it comes down to Asterix not meeting the navy’s AOR Requirements.

It’s a damning indictment when Asterix‘ major benefit that it’s better than Nothing.

I think it was underways but I honestly thought he was talking about the jss
So ? ?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Actually, as I recall, it started because someone (I think MTS himself) indicated that Asterix couldn't carry ammunition. Then Chief noted that she can carry some sea cans for ammo (a limited capability) and I chimed in that we usually only transfer small missiles and gun ammunition, and on top of that weren't exactly expending same at any high rate these days, intimating that for an iAOR the sea cans were sufficient. Finally, Underway explained how much more complete and ranging the facilities of the actual JSS's are going to be for all types of ammunition.

Nobody has pretended for a long time that Asterix is equal to the actual JSS's, when we get them.

This said, she can RAS fuel, avgas, water and food, and dry stores generally, the whole when operating in a safe area. Well, that's 90% of the job of an AOR right there. She also has facilities that are not being used to their full extent, such as medical and dental theatres, or used at all such as aviation maintenance/administrative/stores spaces for a full air detachment.

Is Asterix in the same league as JSS: No.

Is she a damn useful ship as is: Yes.

Is she useful enough so that the RCN might want to retain her (in any form: Full RCN operation, Federal Service lease or transfer to CFAV) so as to free the JSS to forward deploy everywhere in the world while still having a ship to support training along the coast - or as a gap ship whenever one of the JSS is in long refit? I would say yes, but it is for the currently serving admirals and HQ staffers to make that call.

 

[OldSolduer]

Actually, as I recall, it started because someone (I think MTS himself) indicated that Asterix couldn't carry ammunition. Then Chief noted that she can carry some sea cans for ammo (a limited capability) and I chimed in that we usually only transfer small missiles and gun ammunition, and on top of that weren't exactly expending same at any high rate these days, intimating that for an iAOR the sea cans were sufficient. Finally, Underway explained how much more complete and ranging the facilities of the actual JSS's are going to be for all types of ammunition.

Nobody has pretended for a long time that Asterix is equal to the actual JSS's, when we get them.

This said, she can RAS fuel, avgas, water and food, and dry stores generally, the whole when operating in a safe area. Well, that's 90% of the job of an AOR right there. She also has facilities that are not being used to their full extent, such as medical and dental theatres, or used at all such as aviation maintenance/administrative/stores spaces for a full air detachment.

Is Asterix in the same league as JSS: No.

Is she a damn useful ship as is: Yes.

Is she useful enough so that the RCN might want to retain her (in any form: Full RCN operation, Federal Service lease or transfer to CFAV) so as to free the JSS to forward deploy everywhere in the world while still having a ship to support training along the coast - or as a gap ship whenever one of the JSS is in long refit? I would say yes, but it is for the currently serving admirals and HQ staffers to make that call.

You're gonna make a sailor out of me with these common sense comments .

 

[MTShaw]

Its expected that Torpedo and missile loading will be done by the ship alongside or at anchor in a very low seastate as the ships main crane is not rated to be swinging around crazily while underway. Not to mention the challenge of operating the ammunition elevators for the missiles in that sea state.

The only concern is if JSS can carry a full fuel load, stores load, two helos and full ammo load. It might be too much weight so some tradeoffs will likely depend on the mission.

It would be reckless to carry missiles and shells outside a magazine. I’d be stunned that a master would let that happened. If one goes off in a 40ft container, hopefully it is stack on more 40ft containers Or boom.

I don’t know about mk54 carriage, But if we need more LWT two things have occurred: we are fighting the entire Russian submarine force and the AOR will have been sunk.

So my point, is what has been posted above is so ridiculous is that it is for public consumption, marketing material and not for serious hobbyists and professionals

Nobody has pretended for a long time.

Except the people who are flirting with truth above.

Is Asterix in the same league as JSS: No.

Is she a damn useful ship as is: Yes.

sort of. She is only useful in most places the Pacific.

Is she useful enough so that the RCN might want to retain her.

should we keep her as a stand-in for JSS?

Where and who should refit her. Davie likely won’t pay for it. However, the only place that has dry dock space is Davie.

 

[MTShaw]

If you’re at all unconvinced about the need for a proper magazine, this is what happened when a magazine works: a MK41 vls.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I don't understand why you think Asterix is only useful in the Pacific. What keeps her from being useful in the Atlantic, or the Med or the Caribbeans?

As for refit, right off the bat I can think of three yards that could take her, i.e. have drydock facilities large enough: Seaspan Esquimalt's facility, Heddle Marine facility in the Great lakes and Groupe Maritime Verreault in les Mechins.

Finally, who said that the sea can for ammunition are just ordinary sea cans? They are specifically designed to act as magazines for small ammunition, and so is all the associated handling equipement. The RCN has been transferring at sea 3"50, 3"70 and 5 inch shells since the days of PRESERVER, maybe even before. Please allow that we may know a thing or two about transfering ammunition underway and their handling onboard a ship while out of their magazine.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

When Asterix did their first trial for the RAS gear they found the piping full of garbage,welding rods etc to the point where the gear literally fell apart. Some of the hoists had cables damaged. This was when Asterix was delivered and the union was unhappy about the layoffs. Draw your own conclusions. You also have historical Davie where we on several occasions had to literally kidnap our ships in the dead of night due to Union bullshit.

Incompetence and dockyard shenanigans is also in the FMFs as well which is why private contractor are the way to go in my opinion.

To be honest I was happy that we finally had an AOR and was giving Davie credit for getting her done. I had never heard of this wilful sabotage before and quite pissed. Really they should make it so the yard pays a hefty penalty and they lose contracts, unless the person(s) are identified and charges are laid. Maybe if their union brother realises these idiots are costing them their livelihood, then they pipe up. I should not have had to learn about this well after the fact, from a non-official source. It should have been broadcast far and wide and rewards offered for information immediately upon discovery. Hiding it just contributes to the issues.
What I see from the workers at VDC, is they know that the quality of their work is what keeps the yard full and them making an excellent wage. Yes they grumble and bitch about the company from time to time, but not out of the ordinary and most of it is about stuff they see preventing them from doing their work better.

 

[MTShaw]

I don't understand why you think Asterix is only useful in the Pacific. What keeps her from being useful in the Atlantic, or the Med or the Caribbeans?

As for refit, right off the bat I can think of three yards that could take her, i.e. have drydock facilities large enough: Seaspan Esquimalt's facility, Heddle Marine facility in the Great lakes and Groupe Maritime Verreault in les Mechins.

Finally, who said that the sea can for ammunition are just ordinary sea cans? They are specifically designed to act as magazines for small ammunition, and so is all the associated handling equipement. The RCN has been transferring at sea 3"50, 3"70 and 5 inch shells since the days of PRESERVER, maybe even before. Please allow that we may know a thing or two about transfering ammunition underway and their handling onboard a ship while out of their magazine.

I know almost nothing about shells and there charges. It may be totally safe. But what I’m referring is that being in a magazine saved that German ship.