AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[MTShaw]

Captain will make considerable more, but stewards less, I did add a fudge factor, but perhaps not enough.

I won’t release information directly about my former employer, but 3rd class eengineers (entry level officer) can make waaayyyyy more than $40/Day. I can’t speak Federal Fleets rates.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I won’t release information directly about my former employer, but 3rd class eengineers (entry level officer) can make waaayyyyy more than $40/Day. I can’t speak Federal Fleets rates.

I meant $40 an hour

 

[suffolkowner]

I think Australia paid $20,000,000 to lease the Aiviq for the Antarctic season and is doing it again. So maybe leasing is expensive

Contract Notice View - CN3827502: AusTender

AusTender provides centralised publication of Australian Government business opportunities, annual procurement plans and contracts awarded.

www.tenders.gov.au

Davie did build the Cecon Pride and I thought one or two sister ships circa 2013 although I doubt much personel are left from that

Clearly there is some issues getting Davie into the NSS as nothing has been announce yet

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I think Australia paid $20,000,000 to lease the Aiviq for the Antarctic season and is doing it again. So maybe leasing is expensive

Contract Notice View - CN3827502: AusTender

AusTender provides centralised publication of Australian Government business opportunities, annual procurement plans and contracts awarded.

www.tenders.gov.au

Davie did build the Cecon Pride and I thought one or two sister ships circa 2013 although I doubt much personel are left from that

Clearly there is some issues getting Davie into the NSS as nothing has been announce yet

Likely they are doigesting just how much they have to do and spend to get there and wondering if they are regretting what they wished for....

 

[Navy_Pete]

Likely they are doigesting just how much they have to do and spend to get there and wondering if they are regretting what they wished for....

According to their site they are negotiating the umbrella agreement; there is a pretty good explanation of it in an in depth article by either Mr. Tom Ring or Mr. Ian Mack, but includes the work package, timeline, what kind of infrastructure the company is expected to have (ie Target State upgrades) etc.

They keep pushing the lie that their original NSPS bid wasn't selected because of their poor financial state; it was scored 3rd overall across the board because the other two bidders had better technical, IRB etc proposals. The financial bit was a simply guarantee that was part of being technically compliant, not part of the score.

No f*ing way though that they are going to get subs under NSS; there is a lot of completely unfounded BS in their little presser release. This kind of stuff is what pisses people off because it actually causes a huge amount of project churn and slows down everything, especially when they go crying to Ministers.

http://www.davie.ca/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Davie-Shipbuilding-SJ_Final_EG_web1.pdf

 

[Dale Denton]

Aren't these things we should be aiming for? A Multi-Role Support Ship sure sounds useful in a crisis.

UK Pursues Interim And Longer-Term Platform Options To Support Littoral Response Requirements
The UK has announced that its casualty receiving and auxiliary ship RFA Argus will operate as an interim littoral strike platform to support the UK’s Littoral Response Group (LRG) requirement.

Dr Lee Willett 19 Aug 2022

UK pursues interim and longer-term platform options to support littoral response requirements - Naval News

The decision followed a UK Royal Navy (RN) analysis of design and cost options for upgrading amphibious shipping to support UK commando forces, he continued.


However, the minister confirmed that the Argus and Bay-class LSD(A) combination will provide an interim capability only. “The lessons from this analysis, and from operating these platforms forward in the coming years, will inform the procurement of the Multi-Role Support Ship (MRSS), which will replace the capabilities embodied in these platforms in the future.”


On 5 July, the MoD hinted at the decision to downselect Argus. In oral evidence to a House of Commons Defence Committee (HCDC) hearing on the UK’s national shipbuilding strategy, UK Secretary of State for Defence Ben Wallace said “Two years ago, [the RN] was of the view that it would convert a Bay class to give it a better capability to store helicopters. That has currently changed and I am expecting a proposal, although it has not been signed off, that Argus may fulfil that function.”


The navy’s decision may have been informed by wider developments in the ship’s capability. Vice Admiral Sir Chris Gardner, Director General Ships at the MoD’s Defence Equipment and Support procurement agency, told the HCDC hearing that “we have just extended her in-service life in order to maintain our access to a Role 3 medical capability for the foreseeable future.”

 

[Edward Campbell]

At the risk of being a geezer who is too far out of his lanes, I have always liked the idea of a large multi-role ship - probably, for Canada, three of them (one on each coast and one in refit) - big ships 20,000 tons+; fast ships - 25+ knots, with flat decks (not aircraft carriers but able to operate four to six big (Chinook) helicopters) and, simultaneously, able to operate several landing craft and/or hydrofoils AND carry n soldiers (n >300 but <1,500) AND able to refuel and resupply its supporting escorts. But that's NOT the AOR/JSS we are building, is it?

 

[FSTO]

^^
Nothing wrong with getting a carrier. There are all sorts of sizes and capabilities. I really liked the Italian San Giusto when she was in Timor in 2000.

Italian ship San Giusto - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[suffolkowner]

According to their site they are negotiating the umbrella agreement; there is a pretty good explanation of it in an in depth article by either Mr. Tom Ring or Mr. Ian Mack, but includes the work package, timeline, what kind of infrastructure the company is expected to have (ie Target State upgrades) etc.

They keep pushing the lie that their original NSPS bid wasn't selected because of their poor financial state; it was scored 3rd overall across the board because the other two bidders had better technical, IRB etc proposals. The financial bit was a simply guarantee that was part of being technically compliant, not part of the score.

No f*ing way though that they are going to get subs under NSS; there is a lot of completely unfounded BS in their little presser release. This kind of stuff is what pisses people off because it actually causes a huge amount of project churn and slows down everything, especially when they go crying to Ministers.

http://www.davie.ca/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Davie-Shipbuilding-SJ_Final_EG_web1.pdf

Its a PR piece nothing more, something Davie seems to be pretty decent at. Building ships? Time will tell, but its not like Irving, Seaspan or BAE are setting a real high bar either. If they can't meet or won't meet the government standards for NSS inclusion than see ya. I would think they have a bit more urgency to nail down the work so they would have something to do but I guess if you are management getting paid no matter what there is no urgency. One thing Davie has is size and space, whereas Seaspan and Irving plan was to stretch this out as long as they can with minimal investment. Something Ian Mack details in one of his articles exposing his remarkable naivete, I guess he expected them to be motivated by huge profits, guaranteed work and the chance to do a public good. Well he was right on the first two.

The subs are obviously a pipedream right now. First we haven't even decided to replace them. 2nd we are more likely to assemble them vs build them if that. And 3rd I would think Babcock would have the inside edge there.

Aren't these things we should be aiming for? A Multi-Role Support Ship sure sounds useful in a crisis.

UK Pursues Interim And Longer-Term Platform Options To Support Littoral Response Requirements
The UK has announced that its casualty receiving and auxiliary ship RFA Argus will operate as an interim littoral strike platform to support the UK’s Littoral Response Group (LRG) requirement.

Dr Lee Willett 19 Aug 2022

UK pursues interim and longer-term platform options to support littoral response requirements - Naval News

right now its a big dream just to replace what we have. Have to eat our supper before we get dessert

 

[Colin Parkinson]

With the AOP's and AOR's coming online. They might be a nice break for sea going personal from the demands and living conditions of a Halifax.

 

[Underway]

Regardless of what ships did in the past, the JSS will have the dedicated ammunition storage to support a CSC taskgroup at sea if needed. Asterix does not.

Yes it will. Smoke and Flare Mag, Hangar Torpedo Mag, Torpedo Magazine, Magazines 1 (ESSM), 2 (SM2), 3 (Harpoons), 4 and 5 (CIWS, 57mm, 127mm, small arms and other things that have proper compatibility).

Its expected that Torpedo and missile loading will be done by the ship alongside or at anchor in a very low seastate as the ships main crane is not rated to be swinging around crazily while underway. Not to mention the challenge of operating the ammunition elevators for the missiles in that sea state.

The only concern is if JSS can carry a full fuel load, stores load, two helos and full ammo load. It might be too much weight so some tradeoffs will likely depend on the mission.

 

[MTShaw]

Yes it will. Smoke and Flare Mag, Hangar Torpedo Mag, Torpedo Magazine, Magazines 1 (ESSM), 2 (SM2), 3 (Harpoons), 4 and 5 (CIWS, 57mm, 127mm, small arms and other things that have proper compatibility).

Its expected that Torpedo and missile loading will be done by the ship alongside or at anchor in a very low seastate as the ships main crane is not rated to be swinging around crazily while underway. Not to mention the challenge of operating the ammunition elevators for the missiles in that sea state.

The only concern is if JSS can carry a full fuel load, stores load, two helos and full ammo load. It might be too much weight so some tradeoffs will likely depend on the mission.

I’m out.

 

[MTShaw]

I’m out.

Yes it will. Smoke and Flare Mag, Hangar Torpedo Mag, Torpedo Magazine, Magazines 1 (ESSM), 2 (SM2), 3 (Harpoons), 4 and 5 (CIWS, 57mm, 127mm, small arms and other things that have proper compatibility).

Its expected that Torpedo and missile loading will be done by the ship alongside or at anchor in a very low seastate as the ships main crane is not rated to be swinging around crazily while underway. Not to mention the challenge of operating the ammunition elevators for the missiles in that sea state.

The only concern is if JSS can carry a full fuel load, stores load, two helos and full ammo load. It might be too much weight so some tradeoffs will likely depend on the mission.

NRU Asterix helps warships flex their naval might

T wo naval officers who recently commanded Naval Replenishment Unit (NRU) Asterix say the oiler has become a vital part of Canadian naval operations.

www.lookoutnewspaper.com

Everything I’ve read says the Navy won’t use it for the carriage of ammunition. I’ve got a major, multi-day aphasia attack preventing me from properly naming the bunker that is at the bow of the JSS design, but is not at the bow of MV Asterix. The whole purpose is to direct a weapons explosion upward away from fuel

I can’t remember why Davie couldn’t make it but they couldn’t. I can’t find anything about it online right now because the internet is full of people sniffing Davie’s farts.

It’s amazing a stroke survivor is the one with institutional knowledge on this.

I thought i was amateur hour, but this place has been hijacked by people copy-and-paste Davie’s press releases. And me ranting at people copy-and-pasking anyone’s PR kits.

 

[MTShaw]

I should calm down. II’ve already had one stroke.

 

[NavyShooter]

Well, as bad a Davie's press releases may be, at least they don't willfully and deliberately sabotage our ships in hopes of getting called over to do more work on them (that they can charge the government for) after they hand them back to the Navy.

And then they get angry when we find the broken fiber cable ourselves and get FMF to fix it instead of calling them.

Or something like that...

You would be amazed at the institutional knowledge that disappeared from the Navy in the past few years. Losing 56% of your CSE Chiefs from one coast in a 24 month period might have some impact...not to mention what's gone on in the MSE world after the MARTECH solution to the manning problem.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I should calm down. II’ve already had one stroke.

I thought you said you were out ?

 

[Czech_pivo]

If you want specific examples of willful deliberate sabotage, let me know.

If you want specific examples of outright thievery, let me know.

If you want specific examples of incompetence, let me know.

Suffice to say, there are reasons that unoccupied mess decks are padlocked during refits...catching folks sleeping in bunks while 'on the job' has happened...

The ships are stripped of all firefighting hoses and equipment...someone was cutting the brass hose connectors off...and using our fire extinguishers for their fire picket people...

Deliberately plugging a black water suction line on not one but two ships in succession...involving cutting a line, hammering it full of welding rod (or threaded rod on the other ship) and then welding the line back up and PAINTING IT...

Cut fiber optic cables...with tool marks...that are then tucked back into wireways...

Yeah...there's some significant lack of trust of certain ship yards that is well earned.

Time to fire and press charges against the scum that do those things, but I'm sure their union brothers would close ranks and say there's nothing to see here, move along.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I think Australia paid $20,000,000 to lease the Aiviq for the Antarctic season and is doing it again. So maybe leasing is expensive

Contract Notice View - CN3827502: AusTender

AusTender provides centralised publication of Australian Government business opportunities, annual procurement plans and contracts awarded.

www.tenders.gov.au

Davie did build the Cecon Pride and I thought one or two sister ships circa 2013 although I doubt much personel are left from that

Clearly there is some issues getting Davie into the NSS as nothing has been announce yet

Assume politics is involved. Could be waiting to see if Charest manages to win the CPC leadership. Liberals clearly don't want to see 2 Quebecois as leaders of the 2 main parties as it would be good to them. Announcing a large influx of cash/projects to Davie right at the same time the CPC leadership race completes would be prudent.

 

[Stoker]

Well, as bad a Davie's press releases may be, at least they don't willfully and deliberately sabotage our ships in hopes of getting called over to do more work on them (that they can charge the government for) after they hand them back to the Navy.

And then they get angry when we find the broken fiber cable ourselves and get FMF to fix it instead of calling them.

Or something like that...

You would be amazed at the institutional knowledge that disappeared from the Navy in the past few years. Losing 56% of your CSE Chiefs from one coast in a 24 month period might have some impact...not to mention what's gone on in the MSE world after the MARTECH solution to the manning problem.

When Asterix did their first trial for the RAS gear they found the piping full of garbage,welding rods etc to the point where the gear literally fell apart. Some of the hoists had cables damaged. This was when Asterix was delivered and the union was unhappy about the layoffs. Draw your own conclusions. You also have historical Davie where we on several occasions had to literally kidnap our ships in the dead of night due to Union bullshit.

Incompetence and dockyard shenanigans is also in the FMFs as well which is why private contractor are the way to go in my opinion.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Assume politics is involved. Could be waiting to see if Charest manages to win the CPC leadership. Liberals clearly don't want to see 2 Quebecois as leaders of the 2 main parties as it would be good to them. Announcing a large influx of cash/projects to Davie right at the same time the CPC leadership race completes would be prudent.

That's far more complicated than the reality that anything with the NSS has to go through the giant DPS hoops and be vetted by a half dozen departments and then approved by TBS. Politics gets mixed in but there is such a massive amount of bureaucracy that it's unlikely to be the driver. Dept of Finance has been actively fighting NSS for years so lot of internal sniping on top of it too.

Figuring out the work package is a challenge though; if they officially take Polar out of the NC package they have to replace it with something of equivalent value. Not sure if any of the CCG projects are advanced enough to do that.

For Davie specifically they will likely need to get assessed against the specific work package carved out for them, so if it includes a new class of ship that comes into the mix as well.