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Who needs sailors anyway?

Blow it in place and build another. Deadman switch restrained by a signal until it is jammed.
After a few comms blackouts it would be cheaper to build ships and staff them...

There is a place for automation, but flinging missiles from buoys in the middle of the ocean isn't one them.

The notion that automation will win wars is like the notion that the tank is dead, or airpower alone will win. They are tools in the toolkit, that is used properly make fighting easier. If used incorrectly they cost a lot of money and achieve nothing...
 
Maybe you could crossdeck RN and RCN sailors in an AUKUS type arrangement. Between the two navies maybe you could come up with one substantive force?
 
Maybe you could crossdeck RN and RCN sailors in an AUKUS type arrangement. Between the two navies maybe you could come up with one substantive force?
That only works if you have the same platform; there is a lot of ship/equipment specific training. Even the T26 and CSC will be totally different ships in practice at the working level.

We also do somethings a bit differently then the RN, so would require some relearning each way.

It's doable, but not a lot of bang for the buck really. It's more useful in very specific instances for short term exchanges to get a feel for how they do things if we are working in TGs etc, as well as some staff positions ashore which we already do.
 
Jesus, these are even older then the CPFs, and the Westminster refit was previously stopped because she was in such a bad state. We probably have a few ships in similar state TBH.
On average, they're a bit younger but equally knackered. I spent some time on a T42 in '02. Their stokers referred to the T23's as the "Skoda class" :D
 
Maybe we can lease them to cover our gap between the Halifax's and CSC's :)

That is not unusual. Everybody (exept perhaps the US) does that. You don't get extra sailors for a few years when you switch from one class to another so to get the ball rolling, you have to decommission or park a few of the older ships to take their crew and start training them for the new class a few years before the new class hits the water. This way, when the new ships are ready to float, you have a crew on hand for them.

The prcess then goes on: decommission a few more of the old class. Train ashore for a while, then take over the new hulls as they hit the water.

We've done exactly that every time we switched to anew class in Canada.
 
That is not unusual. Everybody (exept perhaps the US) does that. You don't get extra sailors for a few years when you switch from one class to another so to get the ball rolling, you have to decommission or park a few of the older ships to take their crew and start training them for the new class a few years before the new class hits the water. This way, when the new ships are ready to float, you have a crew on hand for them.

The prcess then goes on: decommission a few more of the old class. Train ashore for a while, then take over the new hulls as they hit the water.

We've done exactly that every time we switched to anew class in Canada.
Expect if things stay the way they are, "decommissioning ships" wont free up crews. All people we have available are on ships deployed or about to deploy. The rest of the ships in harbour on EWP or on DWP are skeleton crews.
 
Beyond some other minor editing, to my eyes, that article could equally be republished for the Canadian market just by changing RN to RCN.
Not really; the RN is about a decade ahead of getting new combatant ships to replace the ones they retired, and also has the newer T45s, so their baseline is better and their building is farther ahead.

I suspect we'll probably be down to 4-6 CPFs before CSC is delivered. Aside from their material state with some ships 'self retiring' now, we don't have the people and our funding is cut for NP in 2024 and 2025 to levels that will not get things like basic repairs done during DWPs which will cut years off their lifespan by letting known issues grow. And basic obsolescence replacements will be delayed as well, so cumulatively we aren't doing what we need to do to get them out to CSC IOC.
 

Canada’s Navy left high and dry​

Without ships, fleet sinks into impotence - National Post - 10 Jan 2024 - John Ivison Comment

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ANDREW VAUGHAN / THE CANADIAN PRESS FILES The Halifax-class frigate HMCS Fredericton returns to Halifax in 2020. Canada’s strategy for replacing its frigates is behind schedule and over budget and is worrying the community that defends the country by sea.

With hindsight, it is clear that the past 30 years of disarmament in the West has made democracies vulnerable and encouraged hostile dictatorships to make mischief.

Few countries have been more enthusiastic about enjoying this peace dividend than Canada — and the ramifications are that we now have a military that, by its own admission, can no longer meet its commitments.

In a brutally frank video released on Youtube before Christmas, Vice-admiral Angus Topshee, commander of the Royal Canadian Navy (RCN), said the navy could fail to meet its “readiness commitments in 2024 and beyond.”

Topshee also said that the Halifax-class frigates that are already at the end of their lifespan, “will remain our only combatants for at least the next 15 years.” Canada has ordered 15 replacement frigates based on BAE System’s Type 26 frigate, but they are years behind schedule and are vastly over budget, with the first due to start construction later this year.

Canada only has 12 Halifax-class frigates and at any given time half are in, or preparing to be in, dry dock for maintenance.

That means we will have just six fighting ships at sea to meet our NATO and Indo-pacific strategy commitments until well into the 2030s — ships that one former senior sailor judged are “rapidly becoming combat ineffective.”

To recap: Ukraine war is entering its third year; the conflict in Gaza threatens to escalate across the region; and North Korea is forcing the evacuation of thousands of South Korean citizens by shelling a maritime buffer zone. There are tensions in the Balkans, where Serbia refuses to recognize Kosovo’s independence and backs a breakaway republic in Bosnia and Herzegovina. The Taiwanese will go to the polls on Saturday in an election that could provoke the Chinese to intervene. And the spectre of a return to the White House by Donald Trump looms, with all its implications for the future of NATO.

You don’t have to be a conspiracist to conclude that there is a concerted campaign by a number of dictators to undermine the free world.

Canada needs to rearm — urgently. But we are stuck in a quagmire of our own making.

The navy has not met the required intake of 1,200 new recruits for 10 years and Topshee said recruiting and training new sailors is the “highest priority.”
Recruitment would likely be much easier if new recruits had shiny new ships to sail.
But Topshee said that the first of new surface combatants will not be delivered until early in the next decade, and it will take two or three years after that to test them.

The first ships were originally meant to launch in 2026; that timeline has slipped by years. The original budget for the 15 frigates was $26 billion; one industry source suggested “we are now perilously close to adding another digit” — that is, rising above $100 billion.

The Department of National Defence said that it will provide a formal update on costs this year but did not respond by press time to questions about whether the $100-billion barrier has been breached.

What is clear is that costs keep rising, the schedule keeps slipping and no politicians have grabbed the rudder of this runaway ship.

Failure has a thousand fathers. One industry insider explained that any defence project has three critical factors: cost, risk and schedule. “In this case, the doors have been blown off the cost, the risk is high because the ship has so many developmental systems and the schedule has been blown to hell,” he said.
The National Shipbuilding Strategy was designed as a “continuous build” program to avoid boom and bust cycles and keep yards busy.

The Irving yard in Halifax has already delivered four Arctic and offshore patrol ships (AOPS) and is in the process of building two more for the navy and two for the Canadian Coast Guard. But the decision to build the AOPS before the frigates, which looked good on paper during the peaceful years of the early 21st century, has cost Canada a decade in replacing its 30-year-old frigate fleet.

Critics point out that the Americans didn’t choose BAE System’s Type-26 frigate for the U.S. navy contract because it was an unproven design. By contrast, the RCN saw this as an opportunity to come up with “a Canadian solution.”

The frigate is now 20-percent heavier than was originally planned, which has created concerns about the adequacy of the propulsion system.

Of 26 major systems on the ship, sources suggest there have been platform changes to 19 of them.

Critics claim that what has emerged is a bespoke “Franken-ship.”

Canadian suppliers have been displaced, as the prime contractor Lockheed Martin has installed kit made by American competitors.

Industry sources say they think it is “unlikely in the extreme” that the new ships will meet the terms of Ottawa’s Industrial and Technological Benefits policy, which requires that economic benefits for Canada are equal to the value of the winning bid. The Department of Public Services will only say that “work continues to ensure Canadian industrial participation levels are met.”

The government’s options are limited. Reopening the whole program would leave an even bigger capability gap.

There are concerns that the current ship is no longer the right one. Critics in Australia say its $27-billion frigate program, based on the same British Type-26 design, should be cancelled without delay because, in the words of one retired admiral, “they will be the most underarmed warships of their size in the world.” (Even then, the Australian version has 32 vertical missile launch cells compared to 24 on the Canadian iteration.)

The Liberals could cap the cost and tell the navy that if a cap results in a reduction in fleet size, then so be it. There remain serious doubts that Canada can afford 15 of the planned surface combatants, in any case.

In his video, Topshee acknowledged that the frigates will take up a massive share of military procurement dollars. “I wish it was not so, but I’m afraid there is simply no other choice. There is no other path,” he said.

But there are plenty of concerned people watching events unfold who believe that a different strategy is needed.

The ship’s builders have yet to complete the preliminary design review, after which there is a critical design review and a final design review, both of which could take a year.

One alternative strategy would see the government set a tight timeline to finalize the design, and then contract the first three or four ships within a year.
If timelines were compressed, there is a sense that the first ship could be delivered by 2027-28, with the others arriving every 18 to 24 months thereafter.

While those ships were being built, the government could look at purchasing cheaper, off-the-shelf options from the Americans, such as the Constellation class frigate, to replace the rest of the Halifax fleet.

The lesson seems to have been learned that Canada needs firepower more than it needs to guarantee the jobs of shipyard workers into the 2040s.

In his video, Topshee mentioned that the navy has launched the Canadian Patrol Submarine project to replace the troubled and aging Victoria class with a “commercial” sub in the mid-2030s.

What is becoming clearer by the day, is that business as-usual timelines need to be expedited.

“We assumed time was on our side — and it wasn’t,” said one former senior sailor.
 
Not really; the RN is about a decade ahead of getting new combatant ships to replace the ones they retired, and also has the newer T45s, so their baseline is better and their building is farther ahead.

I suspect we'll probably be down to 4-6 CPFs before CSC is delivered. Aside from their material state with some ships 'self retiring' now, we don't have the people and our funding is cut for NP in 2024 and 2025 to levels that will not get things like basic repairs done during DWPs which will cut years off their lifespan by letting known issues grow. And basic obsolescence replacements will be delayed as well, so cumulatively we aren't doing what we need to do to get them out to CSC IOC.
The RN also reversed their merging of the technical trades and put them back to their respective groups (electricians, millwrights, etc.) well we are still insistent on one big group. Despite it failing for the UK and them warning us it is a terrible idea.

That is going to be our biggest weakness for the Navy as there is 3 things the Navy needs to do, Float, Move, and Fight. Those techs handle two of those capabilities.

The sooner they accept their mistake and reverse it, the better it shall be. Simply too much training required to be trained quickly and effectively.
 
The RN also reversed their merging of the technical trades and put them back to their respective groups (electricians, millwrights, etc.) well we are still insistent on one big group. Despite it failing for the UK and them warning us it is a terrible idea.

That is going to be our biggest weakness for the Navy as there is 3 things the Navy needs to do, Float, Move, and Fight. Those techs handle two of those capabilities.

The sooner they accept their mistake and reverse it, the better it shall be. Simply too much training required to be trained quickly and effectively.

Is there a primary level of care (checking gauges, greasing, topping up tanks etc) that could be used as a common entry level trade from which more technical career paths could evolve?
 
The RN also reversed their merging of the technical trades and put them back to their respective groups (electricians, millwrights, etc.) well we are still insistent on one big group. Despite it failing for the UK and them warning us it is a terrible idea.

That is going to be our biggest weakness for the Navy as there is 3 things the Navy needs to do, Float, Move, and Fight. Those techs handle two of those capabilities.

The sooner they accept their mistake and reverse it, the better it shall be. Simply too much training required to be trained quickly and effectively.
They have the same kind of Martech initial training and specialization we went to; they just kept HT as a specialization. I think they split after the equivalent to our QL3, so everyone does a basic rounds package and has a baseline understanding of basic marine engineering and safety for electrical, mechanical and structural, then goes from there.

They actually went down the same path as we did and got rid of shiprights, then added it back in. They specifically recommended we not do that, but we did anyway (to break up the 'stoker mafia').

Still no firm timeline for getting HT/shipwright specialization in place, as it's been 5-7 years for a while, but at least is approved and actively worked on. When we get there though, our trades will essentially line up again.

Which is good, because T26 design and SOPs are based around the RN trades. That includes having DC specialists with the much (much) smaller DC organization, which we are even more limited in after going with AEGIS. Not having HTs actually in place has been passed back to the RCN as a risk for crewing CSC so hopefully that change doesn't stall further. Until we actually have people trained and out of the pipeline it's only a plan.

The hard part there is we are taking so long to do it that the legacy HTs are largely retired or retiring, so we will likely have a hard time finding instructors.
 
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