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When mass killers meet armed resistance.

This guy was a bit wobbly judging by the video tapes I have just been watching. But if anyone would
have tried to do a little preventive crime action by restricting him in any way I guarantee that some left
wing  lawyer would have been in court screaming about denial of human rights and alluding to the fact
he belongs to a non white minority.
                                           Regards  
 
Kat Stevens said:
Shooters will always find a way to get guns, legal or not.

This is very true, I recently got my Restricted licence (after having my non-restricted licence for several years), I applied November 28th last year, and didn't get my first restricted firearm until last week (I ordered it the day I had my licence in my hand).  If I were the criminal sort I could make one phone call and have just about any sort of illegal weapon in maybe an hour or two.

I have always liked this quote, and I think it's pertinient:

"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-Robert A. Heinlein

Planes
 
cplcaldwell said:
Banning hand guns doesn't even work here. How would it work in the States?

The Virginia Tech incident is at the front of the issue now...

It seems to me that if the court he appeared in front of had of had the presence of mind to say "you are a potential menace to yourself and others.. so no guns for you. " things would have been different.
 

Maybe, maybe not.  He could have attempted to acquire illegal weapons, or he could have improvised and used something else, like a car, axe, machete, explosives etc.  If he was as disturbed as they say he was, and had the intention of killing many people, I don't think there was much that could have stop him.

Isn't it often the case that persons convicted of violent crime or who are at risk to commit violence are banned from having weapons in this country? Isn't it almost routine now for magistrates in Canada to make such a ruling?

Sure it is, but the problem with criminals, is their overwhelming tendancy to BREAK THE LAW, especially when penalties are weak or non-existant.  Ask a police officer in Toronto the number of times they (Toronto Police, not the individual officer) have arrested people for firearms/weapons offences, who are already under conditions prohibiting them from using/owning/carrying firearms/weapons offences.

Why wouldn't the Americans follow suit?

See above.

I mean the right to bear arms for a sensible and stable person seems okay. For a time bomb ..mehhh.

The wider (public) debate seems to have devolved into polemic arguments. But hey, it sells newspapers....

Not picking on you, but the arguement that imposing more restrictions/conditions on lawbiding people will have any impact is a little asinine, because criminals and those intent upon inflicting harm upon others will do what they please regardless of what the laws about gun ownership say.  If you truly want to determine some of these clowns (because you can never really deter the ones with mental issues like this fellow or Kimveer Gill), you need to make the penalities for USING a weapon illegally so harsh, that they will twice about it.  I can't speak for the US because every state has its own laws, however up here in Canada, the prospect of spending 20-40 years in a remote northern Gulag, would be a very big deterent, (so long as they actually did the whole sentence).  The promblem I see (Both here and in the States) is the same bleeding heart whiners who rally against gun ownership, would be the first in line to decry any harh sentences that are handed down for the irresponsible use of said guns.
 
Perhaps I'm being a bit misinterpreted here.

Like I said I have no problem with law abiding people having guns. I'm law abiding and I have guns. Respectfully, I did say '
I mean the right to bear arms for a sensible and stable person seems okay '.

I think in certain societies people carrying weapons on the street seems plausible. Perhaps we should start to look at places where mass violent crime sometimes occurs, perhaps (certain) people at colleges should be given 'carry' permits.

I guess what I'm saying is that that right (...privilege ??)  must be very carefully defined. Any sign of illness or violence and one should lose the right. (Lose it for a while lose it forever, I'm not sure).

As for the point on how many people who are under orders and still have weapons, I think there is good evidence to support the theory that people flaunt the orders... that doesn't mean that making such orders is bad (IMHO) but I do agree with the point that if people violate the order its 'off to the big house' ...making the argument stick in court would probably be a bit sticky ... but still make the order.

I think at the end of the day, no amount of laws or orders will absolutely solve the problem. We'll always have criminals and/or the violently unstable we'll always have guns sooner or later the two will meet up.

I guess I'm saying putting restrictions on criminals or the unstable does help, but I do agree it is not a solution,
 
Hatchet Man said:
 
Not picking on you, but the arguement that imposing more restrictions/conditions on lawbiding people will have any impact is a little asinine, because criminals and those intent upon inflicting harm upon others will do what they please regardless of what the laws about gun ownership say.  If you truly want to determine some of these clowns (because you can never really deter the ones with mental issues like this fellow or Kimveer Gill), you need to make the penalities for USING a weapon illegally so harsh, that they will twice about it.  I can't speak for the US because every state has its own laws, however up here in Canada, the prospect of spending 20-40 years in a remote northern Gulag, would be a very big deterent, (so long as they actually did the whole sentence).  The promblem I see (Both here and in the States) is the same bleeding heart whiners who rally against gun ownership, would be the first in line to decry any harh sentences that are handed down for the irresponsible use of said guns.

I agree that laws need to be strenghthened to punish people who use guns in crimes and those that have illegal firearms should be severely dealt with.  And we must target criminals as opposed to law abiding citizens.  However Cho wasn't a a criminal.  He was a law abiding citizen (for the most part) who was able to legally purchase a gun despite having a mental health issues, and those laws still permitted him to get said weapons.  And I doubt that any harsh laws or repercussions would disuade a man like that.  he had a death wish, who cares if he would get life in prison?  he wasn't planning on staying around to see what that would be like.  Somebody wondered if this guy could have even been stopped or not.  There are issues that go beyond just plain gun control with this case.  Sure, Virginia needs to take a hard look at its lax gun rules (more specifically red flagging nut jobs like him) but there are more issues at hand about how this freak fell through the cracks.  
 
cplcaldwell said:
I think in certain societies people carrying weapons on the street seems plausible. Perhaps we should start to look at places where mass violent crime sometimes occurs, perhaps (certain) people at colleges should be given 'carry' permits.

There already are.  They are called police officers.
 
Crantor said:
there are more issues at hand about how this freak fell through the cracks.
 

Yes, I really think in this case the problem was that 'the system' failed the guy (and eventually society). Gun control was not the central issue here, IMHO, getting access to mental health care and/or forcing the individual to take that care, even if it meant institutionalization was central. Of course I do not know all the issues here, but it seems the root cause was the individual's mental health and that the individual's problems were not adequately treated.

That's what I meant in my first post about how the wider public debate has devolved into yet another debate on gun control. There are gun control aspects to it, but they are not central, (once again IMHO), in this case.

balckadder1916 said:
There already are.  They are called police officers.

Excellent point. To what degree does a society want to leave the means to violence in the hands of the state or, conversely, allow the people access to means to violence? The liberals made it quite clear that there goal was to disarm the people. Lloyd Axworthy said as much.

As for me, I think the best solution is a mix of the two. With reasonable limits and tough sanctions imposed on all offenders.
 
blackadder1916 said:
There already are.  They are called police officers.

So how many colleges in Canada have their own armed police?

Having police at Dawson was just plain luck.
 
CPLCALDWELL
                Good post, I think thats the point I was trying to make in my somewhat obtuse way.
                                        Regards
 
I am not aware of any Canadian colleges or university having their own armed police.  UBC has an RCMP station and presence on campus.  At most places there are Security Guards, but management philosophy tends to be that these are a sort of glorified fire picket or night watchman service.  Their instructions are similar to those given to most staff - call 911 and then duck and cover.  Conversely many (most?) campuses in the US have armed dedicated police forces, even at some very small colleges.  At one that I attended in Idaho, the campus cowboys are also appointed deputy sheriffs so as to enhance their jurisdiction if needed and to better build integration, coordination and communication with the local police services.

This sort of proactive arrangement is difficult if not impossible in the Canadian model - in Canada you only get an armed guard to protect money, not people.

In Canada our philosophy is much more reactive and relies completely on local law enforcement.  As was stated, the Dawson College incident could have easily been much worse if local police had not actually been on site at the time of the incident.  Fortunately those officers reacted very well and their presence forced an early end to what could have been an even bigger tragedy than it was. 
 
Crantor said:
I agree that laws need to be strenghthened to punish people who use guns in crimes and those that have illegal firearms should be severely dealt with.  And we must target criminals as opposed to law abiding citizens.  However Cho wasn't a a criminal.  He was a law abiding citizen (for the most part) who was able to legally purchase a gun despite having a mental health issues, and those laws still permitted him to get said weapons.  And I doubt that any harsh laws or repercussions would disuade a man like that.  he had a death wish, who cares if he would get life in prison?  he wasn't planning on staying around to see what that would be like.  Somebody wondered if this guy could have even been stopped or not.  There are issues that go beyond just plain gun control with this case.  Sure, Virginia needs to take a hard look at its lax gun rules (more specifically red flagging nut jobs like him) but there are more issues at hand about how this freak fell through the cracks.  

If you read the first sentence I wrote, in that section you quoted, you will note that I mentioned that no amount of gun controls/restrictions are going to stop everyone, especially those who are intent on killing/injury innocents.  They will find a way in one fashion or another.  We can try and identify people like Cho before hand, and make them seek counselling, we can try and dissuade criminals and the like with tough restrictions and harsh sentencing, but in the there WILL ALWAYS be those tiny few who simply just don't care.  Period.  Fullstop.  Until we can start reading peoples minds, there is no 100% way to fully prevent these incidents.  Our only option is stopping them (by any means necessary) as quickly as possible, when they do have their meltdown.

redleafjumper said:
I am not aware of any Canadian colleges or university having their own armed police.  UBC has an RCMP station and presence on campus.  At most places there are Security Guards, but management philosophy tends to be that these are a sort of glorified fire picket or night watchman service.  Their instructions are similar to those given to most staff - call 911 and then duck and cover.  Conversely many (most?) campuses in the US have armed dedicated police forces, even at some very small colleges.  At one that I attended in Idaho, the campus cowboys are also appointed deputy sheriffs so as to enhance their jurisdiction if needed and to better build integration, coordination and communication with the local police services.

This sort of proactive arrangement is difficult if not impossible in the Canadian model - in Canada you only get an armed guard to protect money, not people.

In Canada our philosophy is much more reactive and relies completely on local law enforcement.  As was stated, the Dawson College incident could have easily been much worse if local police had not actually been on site at the time of the incident.  Fortunately those officers reacted very well and their presence forced an early end to what could have been an even bigger tragedy than it was. 

Armed police no, unarmed police yes.  The majority of Universities employ unarmed Special Constable in some fashion.  They are fully sworn Peace Officers and have authority of the police on thier campuses.  In Ontario (each province is different) Special Constables can carry firearms (The Niagra Park Police are perhaps the only Special Constable Service that do), if the local police service and the Ministry of Community Safety agree.  However even if the local police and ministry were to agree to a request to carry firearms by a University Special Constable service, it is very unlikely that the University would make such a request in the first place.
 
cplcaldwell said:
The liberals made it quite clear that there goal was to disarm the people. Lloyd Axworthy said as much.

And from Hatchet Man:
However even if the local police and ministry were to agree to a request to carry firearms by a University Special Constable service, it is very unlikely that the University would make such a request in the first place.

The problem here is that these two groups are one and the same - check those ridings that voted Liberal and notice how many of them have Universities in close proximity.

The Liberals not only didn't want citizens to have guns they also didn't want either a "Police State" or a "Military State".  They truly believe in the "Peaceable Kingdom" and "the lion shall lie down with the lamb".  Marvellous philosophically but somewhat lacking in practice.

Some form of defence has to be provided and to be effective it has to be readily available.  If the State provides evidence of its efforts in that regard by putting armed police on the streets, with reasonable rules of engagement, then citizens will feel less need to take matters into their own hands and provide for their own protection.  The State, however, should never deny the citizen the right and the means to protect themselves, just like it should never deny the citizen the right and the means to provide for their own healing.  In both instances we are talking about the fundamental right to security of the person.

So if the State doesn't want the individual to do it for themselves then the correct remedy is to offer a better alternative, not to apply more sanctions.  Personally, as noted, I prefer armed Campus Police to an armed, drunken, sleep-deprived and lecherous student body - Just speaking from my own experience  ;D.
 
Its sad but your right Kirkhill, University of Toronto Police only started carrying ASP batons within the last 3-4 years.  It wasn't the Toronto Police Service that held them back, it was their own administrators who dilly dallied to put in the request.  York University is even worse, they are one of the largest (size wise) campuses in the country and they don't even use Special Constables, they use regular security and they forbid them from taking any form of an active role (they don't even carry handcuffs), prefering they stand back, watch, and call the police.  I have know serveral people who went to York and the complaints about the security doing nothing are ignored by the Admin, even when fights break out and security don't intervene.  In fact I think the security situation at York was brought up before during the Montreal shooting, god help them if anything were to happen, and it is amazing nothing has, considering its location.
 
And now, this on a news wire where companies pay to get their information out....

Attention News Editors:  Media Advisory - Preparing Universities for High-Risk Incidents
Canada NewsWire news release, 21 Apr 07
Article link

"TORONTO, April 21 /CNW/ - Following the deadliest school shooting in North American history at Virginia Tech this week, there is a serious need for Canadian universities to find ways to improve campus security. Efforts must focus on proper training for students and staff on how to respond to threats to personal security, say senior security specialists with the world's leading provider of security solutions.

    Who: Steve Davies and Derek Humble, senior security specialists with the
    Corporate Security Group at Group 4 Securicor (G4S) who specialize in
    high-risk security threats

    What: Interview availability to discuss how to prepare for a security
    threat on a Canadian university campus and professional insights on how
    universities can implement security measures without installing metal
    detectors or placing armed guards at every door.

    About: The Corporate Security Group at G4S has an elite internal team of
    multi-skilled risk managers with ex-police and special military
    experience in disaster management and high risk security scenarios. One
    in 10 Canadian companies are effectively prepared for what G4S refers to
    as "ruinous events". The G4S team identifies these core threats and will
    move to protect against those threats quickly and effectively.

For further information ...."

Here's their web page.

 
blackadder1916 said:
There already are.  They are called police officers.

- The guns the police carry are to protect THEM - not you.  You are responsible for your own defence, and always have been.  That's why you can - as a PERSON - use force up to and including lethal force to protect yourself and, under certain circumstaces, others.  Will you be charged? YES.  If ACTUAL self defence, will you be convicted?  NO.

- Gun free zones make it easy to find all of the un-armed victims in one place, which is why mass-murderers love schools and churches.  The authorities like all of the victims in one place as well, to simplify emergency response.  They also like disarmed victims - easier to tell who the bad guy is - he is the one left alive with the gun.  Naturally, ALL those left alive are considered potential perps at first contact.

"Call 1911A1 for emergency, call 9-1-1 for clean up." has never been more poignant.
 
"Ban guns" and "disarm the people" are two different things.  The former disarms only the habitually law-abiding.  Disarming the people (specifically, including the criminals) has proven to be effectively impossible.  Whichever way it is sliced, the net effect is to render defenceless those who might otherwise opt to provide themselves with means (arms) and methods (training) of self-defence and to provide criminals with useful risk mitigation information.

>Countries which ban handguns have lower murder rates.

That alone tells us nothing.  Information of interest would derive from this question: how many legitimate owners of firearms use them to assault others?

Self-defence and collective defence (when warranted) are inherent powers of the person which follow from the inherent rights of securities of the person (eg. right to life).  Conventionally we delegate those powers to enforcement authorities.  That does not mean we renounce the powers.  When enforcement authorities can not or will not act effectively in a timely manner, the powers of defence still lie with the person.  To those who believe we can require renunciation of those powers by simply writing laws, I respond that it would be a curious thing indeed if the delegated authorities had the power to usurp the delegator with the law-making authority which he delegated in the first place.  That leaves only the tyranny of the majority as the force behind the law.  Such laws are, in effect, nullities.

Aside: ask yourself whether you feel the American Revolution was immoral.  Arms were taken up in against the legitimate government of the time over what were essentially grievances of the governed as to their powers, representation, and taxation (aka "tyranny").  How different are those grievances from any some among us might have today?  Should we have the power to arm ourselves against the contingency we might wish to overthrow that sort of "tyranny"?
 
The 'Classic liberal' (Note the small 'L') will say that we have evolved past that point and revolution is no longer necessary on the planet - nor will it ever be again - now that 'colonialism' has been eradicated and only 'progressive' regimes prevail.

Obviously, they believe that rising up against a 'progressive' oppressor is
'counter-revolutionary' ...Oooops! Sorry!  I mean 'regressive.'

;D
 
I think anyone who truly believes guns are bad, and that the "average" person shouldn't own them - should stand up for their convictions and post signs on their property stating "There are no guns in this house".
 
Sorry for the delayed response, my message didn't go through because of my comp. I also posted this on the Radio Chatter post about VT.

I was stating that the BPD and the VT PD could have issued much more aggressive orders to their subordinates. Such as very aggressive patrols with assault rifles on the whole campus as soon as the forces responded on site. They ONLY established a perimeter and no go zone on one building in the whole area as a response to Cho's initial decoy killings.

I know they had the means, but, my biggest concern is..why didn't they get LEO's to secure the WHOLE campus, including dorms. That's what they did in Montreal, and that bastard was cornered because of the procedures taken.

Although, this tactic may not have worked as there were 25,000 students, and the gunman could have gone on a rampage whether there was police presence or not.

Hired guns (Group 4) that would be in uniforms would also be inneffectual as they are too easy of a target and students/killers would be aware of their presence. Group 4 undercover would also be rooted out by the killer.

As for trained guns on the campus, you'd need well trained (Gunsite, Sigarms academy, IPSC) trustworthy students that are enthusiastic with the thought of being a guard with a noble cause. The only thing about this like stated previously is that, it wouldn't happen because of bureaucracy's within our two countries system.
For now, we need in the USA and Canada, kids that carry illegally who are well versed.

I for one will not feel secure with my life in somebody's hands...unless they are my trained buddy's hands of course.


 
More perspective:

http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/thornton042007.html

Imminent Danger
Madness at massacre will not result in sound gun laws.
by Bruce Thornton
Private Papers

The reaction to the murders in Blacksburg is eliciting the usual liberal nostrums. Typical is the New York Times editorial that concluded, “What is needed, urgently, is stronger controls over the lethal weapons that cause such wasteful carnage and such unbearable loss.” No, what is needed is some coherent thinking that will keep us from allowing the government to restrict further our Constitutional freedoms.

Part of the problem with making sense of such a tragedy is that the spectacular drama and emotion of the crime, stoked by the 24/7 media, distorts its true significance. As horrible as the Virginia Tech murders are for the victims and their families, death by campus maniac is still highly unlikely. Indeed, any gunshot death by a stranger is relatively rare. Homicide ranks fifteenth among causes of death, and only 19% of homicide victims did not know their murderer. So before we start hysterically legislating, let’s recognize that the risk of any college student getting murdered by a stranger is extremely low.

The same caution should guide us in resisting the gun-control hysteria we’re likely to witness in the next few months. In 2004, 8,299 people were killed by guns. Don’t forget, only 19% of them were strangers––that’s 1576 people. To put these numbers in perspective, in 2004 16,694 people were killed by drunk drivers, the greatest percentage of whom were males between 21 and 24. If we’re worried about the safety of college students, then, we should be focusing on drinking. I’m willing to bet the number of college students killed by alcohol poisoning at parties and fraternity rushes is far greater than all the victims of school shootings put together.

More important are the flawed assumptions behind the gun-control hysteria. Partly it reflects the unfamiliarity with guns of most people these days, the consequence of life in cities and suburbs and the decline of hunting. Thus we have seen the appearance of the “anti-gun nut,” the mirror image of the “gun-nut.” Like the latter, the “anti-gun nut” fetishizes the gun, making it an almost diabolically magic instrument that takes control of the owner’s mind and insidiously drives him to violence. This superstition is abetted by two-bit Freudian ideas that make the gun some sort of compensation for sexual repression or inadequacy.

But as anybody familiar with guns knows, the gun is a tool, its use or misuse reflective of the person who wields it. Just as thousands of people misuse alcohol and their cars to kill others, some people — half as many as drunk-drivers, remember — misuse their guns to kill. And just as millions of people drive responsibly and don’t kill others, millions of gun-owners use their weapons responsibly. The difference is, a gun can save your life. We have no real notion of how many people escape harm or death just by showing a weapon. In the rough rural Fresno County neighborhood I grew up in, I know of at least two occasions when my father avoided injury from thugs by poking his .38 in their faces and concentrating their minds wonderfully. The research of John Lott on crime rates in states with liberal, concealed-weapons permits suggests that, as his book is titled, “more guns, less crime.” In short, the demonizing of guns as instruments of wanton murder is a superstition reflecting liberal prejudices.

The worst of these prejudices, however, is the liberal bias against trusting individuals to make decisions about how to manage their own lives. Restrictive gun control laws assume that people are too untrustworthy or incapable or stupid to keep and carry a weapon. Thus laws are written by elite snobs who think they know how to run your life better than you do. Of course, this presumption of the average person’s incompetence is very selective. The same people who think a sane, law-abiding citizen can’t be trusted with carrying a gun will assume that a 15-year-old girl should be allowed to abort her baby. Think about it: the mature person can’t carry a gun because he might kill someone, but the teenaged girl can have an abortion that definitely will kill someone.

Ultimately, though, the biggest flaw behind the “more gun control” solution is the assumption that such restrictions could keep someone from getting a gun if he really wanted one. We’ve spent billions on restricting drugs, including making them illegal and imposing draconian penalties, but any kid in America today can get any drug he wants in an hour. I see no reason why guns would be any different. Washington D.C. has some of the most restrictive controls on guns, yet suffers one of the highest murder rates in the country.

We should not let these murders perpetrated by a psychopath cloud our judgment. The recent circuit court ruling that D.C.’s restrictive  gun law is unconstitutional opens up the chance that decades of laws violating the Second Amendment will be overturned by the Supreme Court. Don’t let emotional hysteria get in the way of this long overdue restoration of one of our rights, and the affirmation of our republic’s foundational assumption: that people are competent enough to run their own lives.

©2007 Bruce Thornton
 
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