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Utility of Ex MAPLE GUARDIAN?

X-mo-1979

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I love HLTA.Although the tour was flying anyway it's nice to not be playing army for a while.Not so much the stress factor but the dealing with people factor.I am a hateful hateful man sometimes lol.Everyone in my organisation looked forward to leave very much.

CANCEL WAINWRIGHT FOR TRAINING.IT IS USELESS.

Also prior to deployment getting more than 2 days off would be really nice.Someone forgot we were not on the same training plan as the rest of the BG.
 
CANCEL WAINWRIGHT FOR TRAINING.IT IS USELESS.

Mind elaborating alittle on what was useless about it? Otherwise the most useless thing involved here is your statement.
 
Teflon said:
Mind elaborating alittle on what was useless about it? Otherwise the most useless thing involved here is your statement.

Sure thing.I just thought everyone agreed...seems so in our BG.

Going from live fire realistic training in a area that looks identical to the area we operate to Wainwright was a opposite learning curve than was needed.
After troop training sept-dec collective battle gp training in Texas Jan-Mar we pretty well had our training in hand.

Wainwright was unrealistic.The stands,terrain did not compare to Texas at all.As for the WES system having to use my C-6 to engage 2000m when I had a 105mm which wasn't calibrated changed the whole outcome of every "attack" we did out there.Thus adding to the unrealistic training provided at Wainwright.Texas better reflected the things we are doing there now.

Nothing new was learned in wainwright.
And this was brought higher on multiple occasions.

It was time spent away from family that wasnt needed.
 
"Nothing new was learned in wainwright"

Correct. EX MG is intended as the confirmatory phase.
I agree about time spent away however.
 
X-mo-1979 said:
Sure thing.I just thought everyone agreed...seems so in our BG.

Going from live fire realistic training in a area that looks identical to the area we operate to Wainwright was a opposite learning curve than was needed.
After troop training sept-dec collective battle gp training in Texas Jan-Mar we pretty well had our training in hand.

Wainwright was unrealistic.The stands,terrain did not compare to Texas at all.As for the WES system having to use my C-6 to engage 2000m when I had a 105mm which wasn't calibrated changed the whole outcome of every "attack" we did out there.Thus adding to the unrealistic training provided at Wainwright.Texas better reflected the things we are doing there now.

Nothing new was learned in wainwright.
And this was brought higher on multiple occasions.

It was time spent away from family that wasnt needed.
Right, well here's the scoop on Wx that most BG COs don't tell you. They don't care if you learn anything new.  If you do, great but if not, they didn't assemble the horsepower they did to assess basic soldier skills - they are validating the BG as a whole which means it is the CO and staff that are under the gun.  Every MG serial there is the inevitable debate as to whether it is a mission rehearsal exercise or a validation exercise.  As much as the CO would like to think it's his MRX he is being confirmed - LCols don't like this, so most of them badmouth the exerciseand never explain the intent to the lowest level.  The way army training works is that at every level you are given the opportunity to work at that level then you are confirmed by someone two levels higher.  So we start with IBTS move to pairs fire-and-movement, section attacks, platoon attacks, Coy then surprise, BG.  Texas was your CoC's chance to sort out it's collective **** then CMTC provides an opportunity for the CO to show the Army Comd he knows what he is doing.  So, does it matter if there is no arty no what matters is how the CO deals with that eventuality and tailors his plans accordingly.  In the end this is just a quick synopsis of one side of the debate I know it is much more complex than what I have posted here.
 
Which couldnt be done at the end of the EX in Texas I guess.Care to explain why this couldnt be completed with an extra 2 weeks onto Texas?
 
Cleared Hot:

Great description.  CAXes or TEWTs or Practical Exercises Not Including Soldiers only do so much - having the whole mess of troops out on the ground brings home the reality in ways a CAX never can.

Changing venues is a training benefit, as it helps keep folks from getting lazy (Anyone ever been told that it will be "the usual mission in the usual location" when training at the same base as always?  Thought so.).  For the troops on the ground it can be very frustrating - particularly when their leadership does not communicate things clearly.

The training can be shortened and better organized.  If you look at the LFCA website for 2010, you'll see that they're assembling in Petawawa in Sept 09 for deployment in early 2010 - with block leave over Xmas.  So bit by bit we're elarning, and tweaking, and shortening the road to deployment.

Lots of the training is intended to help the leaders work out the moving parts - and part of learning is screwing up - which can ake the moving parts somewhat cross...
 
Delays in applying lessons learned to the training cycle are unavoidable.  If TF 1-08 learns something neat, it's already too late for 3-08 to benefit, and depending where in the prep cycle they are, it may be too late for 1-09.  So 3-09, 18 months later, may be the first to benefit from the 1-08 training cycle lessons learned.
 
Cleared Hot said:
they are validating the BG as a whole which means it is the CO and staff that are under the gun.

Yes - to a degree.  They may like to say they are validating the Battlegroup, but the reality of it is that that Battlegroup is going.  That battlegroup is the only one in the hopper, so the Army validation wouldn't go too far.  Do you expect CLS to say to the CDS "Sir, the Battlegroup failed in Wainwright, TF 7-09 isn't going overseas...."

If there was a dramatic performance issue, I'd suspect there would be other issues Army wide that would trip the sensors before a MAPLE GUARDIAN exercise.

If a CO or his staff was on glue, I'd have a hard time seeing a "relief in place" (for lack of a better term).  The Army seems loathe to fire people (although I've heard this has changed recently....).
 
There have been instances of Bde Comds firing staff prior to deployment; details rarely come out nor is there usually any career impact.  Sort of like screwing up with the UN - you'll stil get your right-justified UN PER, along with some folks in Canada getting phone calls (and rarely faxes) asking "Who the f**k was that turd you sent us?" (And yes, I've seen such faxes)
 
dapaterson said:
details rarely come out nor is there usually any career impact.

Ahh yes - praise to mediocrity!
 
From my perspective, Maple Guardian is a justification for the installation and implementation of WES, which was somewhat buggy, and that helmet umbilical cord is damn irritating.
I found the value of Maple Guardian(1-08) for the level of Tp/Pl and below was dubious. Hopefully the BG and TF command staff get their money's worth out of it...
 
Cleared Hot has it mostly right - MG is where the BG learns (not confirms) how to integrate the various enablers.  If I were to look into my crystal ball, I would say that in 2 years WES will be completely portable, and so CMTC itself will become an exportable capability.
 
Infanteer said:
Ahh yes - praise to mediocrity!
praise the mediocrity is right but, nevertheless, those people who get RTU'd & do not get deployed to Afghanistan will not see much advancement beyond - so the person will ultimately "get it" in the end.
 
Infanteer said:
Yes - to a degree.  They may like to say they are validating the Battlegroup, but the reality of it is that that Battlegroup is going.  That battlegroup is the only one in the hopper, so the Army validation wouldn't go too far.  Do you expect CLS to say to the CDS "Sir, the Battlegroup failed in Wainwright, TF 7-09 isn't going overseas...."

If there was a dramatic performance issue, I'd suspect there would be other issues Army wide that would trip the sensors before a MAPLE GUARDIAN exercise.

If a CO or his staff was on glue, I'd have a hard time seeing a "relief in place" (for lack of a better term).  The Army seems loathe to fire people (although I've heard this has changed recently....).
First off, we have to keep a few things in mind about the political climate when CMTC was first conceived and contracted.  First, the thinking of our political masters at the time was that with the collapse of the Soviet Union the world was going to be much a safe place so much so that we could cut about 1/3 of our military and still effectively do what was needed.   ::) CMTC was a way to keep training for the same type of missions we had been in the past, Mech BG Ops.  Afghanistan came too far along in the process to really change the basic concept.  They have been trying to adapt it (and WES) as much as possible but its harder to change the wheels on a moving bus.  The next thing we have to remember was that there was supposed to be two HR BGs at any given time, one with a mission one on call.  That meant 5 MG serials a year - 4 Reg and 1 Res.  Which meant among other things that there would have been someone else to go if a BG "failed" a MG serial.

Now with this in mind I will say this, why would you want to keep an entire BG home?  If they are at a MG serial they have been confirmed up to but not including BG so why fire all the soldiers under the CO and his staff when it is they who are the weak link?  Make no mistake, countless BG and TF staff officers and at least one CO (PRT) have been fired based on their performance on MG serials.  Do I fault anyone from not making public announcements that LCol X has been fired? No and infact, one could say there is a QR&O saying you can't.  That being said, not too many Sr. Officers give up on key positions within a deploying organization to take a course or to take a lesser position back in Canada - so if you look closely you can fill in your own blanks if you are the type who enjoys others' misfortune/humiliation.  So IMO the most efficient use of resources/personnel is to find another key player vice throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  And before anyone cries team building etc. I would simply offer that if the CO took a bullet in month one of the tour, the 2I/C will probably not take the BG but they would quickly find a LCol in Canada in need of Comd time and send him over - so if he could do it with no work up, it certainly can be done before you leave Canada.  (In the last month my bet would be the 2 I/C gets his 30 days of fame.

At CMTC the BG CO does not get debriefed like everyone else.  There is still the formal AAR process but then when everyone else is asked to leave and the CO is left with the Comd CMTC, Bde Comd, Area Comd, LF Comd (as a minimum), he gets debriefed just like anyone else and those are some pretty high-profile pers, so regardless of what faxes or calls get made, the people who matter know what the popular opinion is (career going, career going, career stops).  Too bad if that info doesn't permeate down to Pte Bloggins.  As for individual CMTC events / attacks etc., yes the BGs have been made to do them over again and again until they get it right - just like phase training.
 
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