Using the Forces to fight terrorism in Canada

[vonGarvin]

cough - underfunded - cough


Teddy point about illegality is a MAJOR point.

Besides entities of the CF do have an inside Anti-terror mandate -- however IF they other servies do their thing it does not get to that point.

You, I or anyone else does not want the ARMY policing Canada -- that's a police state.

Very good points.  Also, most of the CF is trained to fight a different kind of battle.  For example, imagine 1 VP in Toronto doing those raids.  Could they do it?  Most likely.  Would it be the most efficient way to do things?  Certainly not.  After all, those police and SERT guys are trained for this kind of stuff with PLENTY of Canadian Citizens around.  Just as the police shouldn't be off fighting wars, the army shouldn't be doing police work.  The police forces involved just proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt, just why they should keep at it.  Their INT was bang on (pun intended), they planned and executed with such effectiveness that I don't think a single shot was fired.  As I've said previously, Well done!  Bravo Zulu!

 

[KevinB]

I'm sure 3RCR could have done it -- but the DD's, breaching charges and expended pile of brass may have made the neighbours a bit cross 

Enjoy your new subordinate Duey  ;D

 

[Good2Golf]

I'm sure 3RCR could have done it -- but the DD's, breaching charges and expended pile of brass may have made the neighbours a bit cross 

Enjoy your new subordinate Duey  ;D

I-6, if he/she turns out to be one of my charges, I will certainly keep that in the back of my mind.  I would like to think, however, that there is not a single tactical aviator that would think that way, especially working as aviators do so closely with the Army and other forces on a regular basis.  For my community's pride and professionalism, I hope acheo is not one of us.  Anybody that I know who may take a pause from a hectic day in the office to joke a bit and build a little camaraderie does so responsibly and has likely been on operations and deserves a little breather.  As you know, there are only a few CF capabilities that provide regular/dedicated support to the fight against terrorism within our borders.  Everyone else would aid civil authorities when and where required as other posters have correctly pointed out.

Cheers,
Duey

 

[Kirkhill]

I've posted in favour of the CF in general and the Militia in particular having a greater role in Domestic Operations: more reg/res training exercises in the bush and the arctic to assert sovereignty, exercises "on the economy" (I believe that phrase has been used to describe exercises in urban/rural areas), more training by reserves to handle crises etc.  However, I am not in favour of a regular "green" presence on the streets or at the borders.  The "Blues" and "Scarlets" have got the best handle on those tasks.

Also the public is used to their local police and the Mounties walking amongst them.  If they see "green" then they will start to think that there is something serious afoot.  One thing that seems to be priceless in maintaining order is maintaining a sense of normalcy.

Even though there was little to distinguish the Tactical Squad Police supplying security during this latest excitement and Canadian Infanteers in Afghanistan when it comes to weaponry, and I am guessing training and preparation may have much in common, those blue coveralls and baseball caps make all the difference in perception.

The CF needs to train for Aid to the Civil Power and Domestic Operations.  They need to be able to conduct those operations, and on occasion, they can be expected to be so utilized.  If the Police are responsible for the 90% of the security activities of the state, the planned 90%, the expected 90%, then the CF is there to cover the "unplanned", "unexpected" 10% on a temporary basis. 

If it is determined that the state needs helicopters flying the borders at night then it might make sense to have the CF fly the mission until it is determined if the need is of long or short duration. If it is short, if there is an end in sight to the emergency, then the CF can handle it.

If, however, the mission is determined to be a continuing one then the capability should be stood up within the Police so that a sense of normalcy can be generated as soon as possible.

The CF needs to be able to act domestically but I don't want to see that happen even as I expect that it will.

 

[Strike]

Duey,  I highly doubt that acheo is from Pet, and if he/she is, I am going to have to call BS on more than a few things -- and knowing anything about Petawawa is one of them.

Acheo, if you are from Pet, than this:

...When a typical day is like sitting at the desk telling war stories or spending your morning at the Petawawa Tim Horton or jogging and weight lifting...

  certainly does not apply to you're normal day.  I would LOVE to find the time to do PT during work hours.  As for chatting over Timmies, sure, that happens sometimes -- when someone is nice enough to bring a few to work with them, and then it's (the chatting) usually while planning for the next flight.  And if you are not from there, then put your Sqn in your profile so people don't think you're from 427.  It's embarassing.

 

[tamouh]

While the basis of the idea is plausable, in practice, this can't be accomplished. There will be conflict of authorities, army rules are different from civilian rules and most importantly this will open the door for the army to go further and slowly take other duties like policing...etc. Which leaves the country eventually (after long time) in pretty much "Police State".

The work of the Canadian army is appreciated always, however, each component of the public service has to take care of its responsibilities. The Canadian army for example is in shortage for recruits, so why not grab police officers and train them as army recruits?

Again, I think the idea is good in perfect theory, but should not be used in real life just for the simple fact the Army should not be involved in civil life. This is the whole concept of separating civil and military lives.

 

[1feral1]

Couldn't expect less from you army guys.

Next time I go in Gagetown or in Wainright I make sure I give you a hell of a ride Teddy Roxpin 

Sniff, sniff, I smell poser and a dirty great big pile of fresh (with seeds), ripe, steaming BS. Your 'pilot' in your profile I see has been deleted.

Oh, gee, I wonder why.  :

Have a LAVly day.


Wes

 

[Enzo]

In regards to Canada's "porous" border into the US. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't US border security the domain of the US Homeland Security Forces?

Too many comments above have already said what needs to be said. Next topic.

 

[HItorMiss]

Is the concept of patrolling the St Lawrence seaway ( a haven for smuggling etc etc ) possible in term of kit available and training...I would say yes, Heck Recce Pl from any of the Inf Bn's could set up Ops along known routes and watch them as long as needed, and yes the NVG capability of said Recce Pl and the Helo's would indeed make it feasible. But I'm also sure that the Police could and have already done it, are doing it.

But I tell you what; in the time since I was married almost 5 yrs ago I still measure time spent with my wife and child and in months not years, what I don't need is another task taking me away from them I have enough thank you very much!

I know I don't spend my time sitting around telling war stories, and drinking Timmies (well ok I tell war stories but generally while we work)
Do I get time to do PT in the morning, sure do...do I spend my own time working out...yes to that to, have I on occasion gone to the gym during working hours to lift weights Yes I have, but guess what.... My job is to be fit at all times to carry out my assigned task so don't tell me working out is wasting tax payers money.

Duey, Strike please enjoy if this person is indeed a member of your unit, and don't worry about being embarrassed I know for a fact how busy you Pilots are and how much work the unit does just to get my butt from point A to Point B.

Acheo.... You have a Lovely Recce Day

 

[Enzo]

What the hell, I'm not doing anything productive right now anyway.

Acheo - Aside from the above mentioned factors of time & training for the CF, etc. Assuming that something like border recon was initiated. It would have to be at the behest of the police forces, etc. Even then, the mission parameters/goals would have to be precise.

I can see the headlines now, "CF personnel shoot native Mohawk smugglers on the St. Lawrence". Who fired first? Who was in the wrong, etc. Would it matter to the press? It's fun enough for the police, let them handle their domain. If they want assistance, then they can ask for it.

 

[Hot Lips]

Is the concept of patrolling the St Lawrence seaway ( a haven for smuggling etc etc ) possible in term of kit available and training...I would say yes, Heck Recce Pl from any of the Inf Bn's could set up Ops along known routes and watch them as long as needed, and yes the NVG capability of said Recce Pl and the Helo's would indeed make it feasible. But I'm also sure that the Police could and have already done it, are doing it.

But I tell you what; in the time since I was married almost 5 yrs ago I still measure time spent with my wife and child and in months not years, what I don't need is another task taking me away from them I have enough thank you very much!

I know I don't spend my time sitting around telling war stories, and drinking Timmies (well ok I tell war stories but generally while we work)
Do I get time to do PT in the morning, sure do...do I spend my own time working out...yes to that to, have I on occasion gone to the gym during working hours to lift weights Yes I have, but guess what.... My job is to be fit at all times to carry out my assigned task so don;t tell me working out is wasting tax payers money.

Duey, Strike please enjoy if this person is indeed a member of your unit, and don't worry about being embarrassed I know for a fact how busy you Pilots are and how much work the unit does just to get my butt from point A to Point B.

Acheo.... You have a Lovely Recce Day

Dang it all HoM...and I thought that I was going to go in the CF for a Jammie go, lmao rotfl and you say it's not a country club...but I get to work out during working hours 
I certainly believe that the CF and it's members have the capability and knowhow to do the anti-terrorism here at home...but do believe as it has been stated that that is in the hands of others at this time and until called upon...the CF will standby

HL

HL

 

[HItorMiss]

I can see the headlines now, "CF personnel shoot native Mohawk smugglers on the St. Lawrence". Who fired first? Who was in the wrong, etc. Would it matter to the press? It's fun enough for the police, let them handle their domain. If they want assistance, then they can ask for it.

Enzo raises a very good point, one that I thought about after posting my little diatribe, what would happen if my aforementioned Op took fire, you can't have those guy's sitting there unarmed, and they would shoot back but what about the legality? what about the public outcry even if it was a "state" sponsored activity? heck we shoot people overseas and look at the out come over here when it comes out in the press.

So again is possible, yes.

Should we... No

 

[Good2Golf]

There is a HUGE issue when it comes to surveillance domestically.  Government sensitivities to personal privacy precludes us from just going out and rather "indiscrininately" surveilling over the citizenry.  That's going to be the deal-breaker on whether such activitiy would be a regular part of internal surveillance.  I would think that any kind of domestic surveillance would be in support of civilian LE authorities and their prosecution activities, not a sweeping "keep an eye on all the things that you can see" kind of a thing.

Cheers,
Duey

 

[_TheSaint_]

God what a stupid idea.

If there were Army personnel roaming Yonge Street the civilian populace would think they're living in Communist China.....where the army is a more common sight than the police. You even used the term "Homeland"......pleeease refrain from calling Canada by one of GWB's Orwellian phrases. There are RCMP, CSIS and regular City Police that get paid to do this stuff. They also have the experience as proved recently. No Martial Law here thanks.

Definition of Martial Law: "the system of rules that takes effect (usually after a formal declaration) when a military authority takes control of the normal administration of justice. Martial law is instituted most often when it becomes necessary to favor the activity of military authorities and organizations, usually for urgent unforeseen needs, and when the normal institutions of justice either cannot function or could be deemed too slow or too weak for the new situation; e.g., due to war, major natural disaster, civil disorder, in occupied territory, or after a coup d'état. The need to preserve the public order during an emergency is the essential goal of martial law. However, declaration of martial law is also sometimes used by DICTATORSHIPS, especially MILITARY DICTATORSHIPS, to enforce their rule"

Unless some completely unforeseen tragedy occurs there is no reason, not ever, for troops in the streets.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote from Saint,
No Marshal Law here thanks.
Definition of Marshal Law:

Marshal??? Who the crap is Marshal.....and why does he get his own law?? :

 

[_TheSaint_]

Quote from Saint,
No Marshal Law here thanks.
Definition of Marshal Law:

Marshal??? Who the crap is Marshal.....and why does he get his own law?? :

Apparently there's no escaping the spelling police.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Well now that I corrected your spelling, I think its time to call you on this....

Quote,
Unless some completely unforeseen tragedy occurs there is no reason, not ever, for troops in the streets.

You mean some tragedy like the Olympics, visiting dignitaries, Remembrance Day ceremonies, etc?

Wow, your hatred makes you thick....

 

[_TheSaint_]

Well now that I corrected your spelling, I think its time to call you on this....

Quote,
Unless some completely unforeseen tragedy occurs there is no reason, not ever, for troops in the streets.

You mean some tragedy like the Olympics, visiting dignitaries, Remembrance Day ceremonies, etc?

Wow, your hatred makes you thick....

My hatred of what?
OBVIOUSLY there are events where soldiers should be allowed to briefly appear in the streets. If this didn't occur from time to time the general populace wouldn't know you existed. That's all for show. I'm not talking about parading. I mean when soldiers are doing the jobs of regular Law Enforcement with rifles and field kit. I don't care too much about a bunch of guys wearing kilts and what have you. It's the ones wearing CADPAT carrying C-7s and doing the work of the Police.


compare....

1)

and

2)

 

[Enzo]

Which one are you again?  :

 

[_TheSaint_]

Which one are you again?  :

The one on the left?