Traditions. Bottom up or top down

[ModlrMike]

You know what else goes with soup? Bread... and maybe circuses.

 

[RangerRay]

But is it good soup?

 

[Kat Stevens]

But is it good soup?

It doesn’t matter. It’s tradition.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I’m not a big fan of the empty table. The mess dinner is a time for good cheer comradeship. If the PMC insists on the table then please skip the preamble, the Sunday toast covers that.

Thank you! Glad to see I'm not alone.

There is nothing worse than having had a lovely social time with your comrades, only to get hit with a semi-literate Vice explaining symbolism of salt and lemon for 5 minutes.

I honestly have a huge respect for the Hasty P tradition of toasting the White Battalion (deceased memebrs) as it is short, to the point, and is an appropriate tribute that links currently serving members with those who have gone before. Being "transferred to the White Battalion" and toasting them is a poignant way of saying "even in death, you're still part of the regimental family and we will toast your memory in this time of joyous commemoration."

I feel the same about our acquired fetish for coin culture. Hell the Americans use them as momentos; we have taken them as a cheap alternative to our Byzantine and miserly H&A system.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I feel the same about our acquired fetish for coin culture. Hell the Americans use them as momentos; we have taken them as a cheap alternative to our Byzantine and miserly H&A system.

I hate coins. They are a cancer.

I love the people who have those stands for them. And then when you go to CANEX for a pack of DuMaurier, to keep from killing, you see all the coins they had on their desk for sale at the cash register. These things are worthless.

True story, young Bos'n on FRE was given a COs coin, made the one pace step back, salute and right turn and promptly threw it over the side in the Reykjavik harbor.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I hate coins. They are a cancer.

I love the people who have those stands for them. And then when you go to CANEX for a pack of DuMaurier, to keep from killing, you see all the coins they had on their desk for sale at the cash register. These things are worthless.

True story, young Bos'n on FRE was given a COs coin, made the one pace step back, salute and right turn and promptly threw it over the side in the Reykjavik harbor.

I received one from Comd CJOC a while back. He said "Here's one for the mantle" something of the sort. I retorted "you mean the shoebox I keep them in my leaky basement, Sir?" He didn't find the same kind of humour as I did.

The TF SM didn't either...

 

[Halifax Tar]

I received one from Comd CJOC a while back. He said "Here's one for the mantle" something of the sort. I retorted "you mean the shoebox I keep them in my leaky basement, Sir?" He didn't find the same kind of humour as I did.

The TF SM didn't either...

The truth hurts. Our H&A is so broken.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

The truth hurts. Our H&A is so broken.

Our DCOS was U.S. Army. He was baffled by our reluctance and often times hostile attitude to awarding H&A to deserving members.

He said it was less effort to get the DoD in the U.S. to award an AAM/MSM to a Canadian than it was for him to get Canada to award a CDS Commendation or MSM/MSC to a Canadian.

That is absolutely fucked and should not be the case.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Our DCOS was U.S. Army. He was baffled by our reluctance and often times hostile attitude to awarding H&A to deserving members.

He said it was less effort to get the DoD in the U.S. to award an AAM/MSM to a Canadian than it was for him to get Canada to award a CDS Commendation or MSM/MSC to a Canadian.

That is absolutely fucked and should not be the case.

It shouldn't be hard to fix either, but when CJOC tells you who gets what before you even leave Canada I am not sure what can actually be done.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

It shouldn't be hard to fix either, but when CJOC tells you who gets what before you even leave Canada I am not sure what can actually be done.

The Canadian Forces Honours Policy Manual (A-DH-300-000/AG-001) is a fascinating read, in all honesty. Nothing more Canadian than setting up a committee to advise a committee to advise the National Committee, to advise the PM, to recommend to the GG, to award the honour.

Or setting a quota limit on H&A based on deployed strength, vice actual merit. Doesn't matter if you're awesome at your job, authorized strength is 200 pers on your Roto, which means 0.75 MSM and 0.25 MSC per 200. And since there isn't ¾ or ¼ of a person on the roto... looks like the TF Comd is getting the MSC and the TF SM is getting the MSM.

But don't worry, you please can have a TF Comd commendation that doesn't mean shit to anyone except the TF Comd.

 

[Halifax Tar]

You hit the nail on the head.

 

[Furniture]

Our DCOS was U.S. Army. He was baffled by our reluctance and often times hostile attitude to awarding H&A to deserving members.

He said it was less effort to get the DoD in the U.S. to award an AAM/MSM to a Canadian than it was for him to get Canada to award a CDS Commendation or MSM/MSC to a Canadian.

That is absolutely fucked and should not be the case.

One of Canada's strongest traditions is reflexive anti-Americanism. Look at pretty much any uniform change and you'll see someone comparing it to the Americans, and complaining about us looking like boy scouts.

The whole "NASCAR Jacket" thing when the RCN added the "Navy/Marine" and SSI to the NCD jacket was pretty telling. The RN wears a "Royal Navy" tape, and the White Ensign, but nobody said we were looking too British, they went straight to working class American, because it is the thing most likely to get a reaction out of other Canadians.

The CAF would rather not recognize our people than potentially give out a couple of actual merit awards, just because it might make us look "American".

 

[rmc_wannabe]

One of Canada's strongest traditions is reflexive anti-Americanism. Look at pretty much any uniform change and you'll see someone comparing it to the Americans, and complaining about us looking like boy scouts.

The whole "NASCAR Jacket" thing when the RCN added the "Navy/Marine" and SSI to the NCD jacket was pretty telling. The RN wears a "Royal Navy" tape, and the White Ensign, but nobody said we were looking too British, they went straight to working class American, because it is the thing most likely to get a reaction out of other Canadians.

The CAF would rather not recognize our people than potentially give out a couple of actual merit awards, just because it might make us look "American".

This ^.

I remember defending one of my troops because a crusty dinosaur of a WO called him a "bling chaser" "boy scout" for wearing his qualification patches on his combats. He was a CIMIC dude in AFG and had also been flight crew on the AWACs down in Oklahoma.

I very calmly and pointedly asked the WO what cool shit he did that merited a badge like my troop? Silence.

It's not about the "bling" or "pieces of flair" or "Me, me, me"... it's full about recognition. It's about the organization saying "you did the thing. You deserve recognition." The CAF doesn't do that well at all and will chastise and condescend achievements because "well you're just doing your job, quiet professionals, etc."

And people wonder why to this day we don't commemorate Medak or why we award "Expedition" ribbons for missions that really should have their own separate awards.

 

[Halifax Tar]

One of Canada's strongest traditions is reflexive anti-Americanism. Look at pretty much any uniform change and you'll see someone comparing it to the Americans, and complaining about us looking like boy scouts.

The whole "NASCAR Jacket" thing when the RCN added the "Navy/Marine" and SSI to the NCD jacket was pretty telling. The RN wears a "Royal Navy" tape, and the White Ensign, but nobody said we were looking too British, they went straight to working class American, because it is the thing most likely to get a reaction out of other Canadians.

The CAF would rather not recognize our people The CAF would rather just recognize senior officers and CWOs than potentially give out a couple of actual merit awards, just because it might make us look "American".

FTFY

 

[BrianWL]

This ^.

I remember defending one of my troops because a crusty dinosaur of a WO called him a "bling chaser" "boy scout" for wearing his qualification patches on his combats. He was a CIMIC dude in AFG and had also been flight crew on the AWACs down in Oklahoma.

I very calmly and pointedly asked the WO what cool shit he did that merited a badge like my troop? Silence.

It's not about the "bling" or "pieces of flair" or "Me, me, me"... it's full about recognition. It's about the organization saying "you did the thing. You deserve recognition." The CAF doesn't do that well at all and will chastise and condescend achievements because "well you're just doing your job, quiet professionals, etc."

And people wonder why to this day we don't commemorate Medak or why we award "Expedition" ribbons for missions that really should have their own separate awards.

nothing worse - a jealous boss.

 

[Remius]

I hate coins. They are a cancer.

I love the people who have those stands for them. And then when you go to CANEX for a pack of DuMaurier, to keep from killing, you see all the coins they had on their desk for sale at the cash register. These things are worthless.

True story, young Bos'n on FRE was given a COs coin, made the one pace step back, salute and right turn and promptly threw it over the side in the Reykjavik harbor.

I guess it depends on the story behind it.

Every single coin I have or care to have has a personal story attached to it. None were given to me on parade or anything but were more personal in nature. I do have a couple of commemorative ones for specific milestones or events.

But yes, they should not be used as a cheap replacement for our honours and awards.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I guess it depends on the story behind it.

Every single coin I have or care to have has a personal story attached to it. None were given to me on parade or anything but were more personal in nature. I do have a couple of commemorative ones for specific milestones or events.

But yes, they should not be used as a cheap replacement for our honours and awards.

If you've done something worthy of being called in front of your peers and recognized then it should be an official award or decoration. We have a slew of options for this; coins are the cheap and easy way of avoiding our broken H&A system.

 

[Remius]

If you've done something worthy of being called in front of your peers and recognized then it should be a official award or decoration. We have a slew of options for this; coins are the cheap and easy way of avoiding our broken H&A system.

Agreed, and yes coins seem to easy way out.

 

[OldSolduer]

I’m not a big fan of the empty table. The mess dinner is a time for good cheer comradeship. If the PMC insists on the table then please skip the preamble, the Sunday toast covers that.

I unabashedly told a captain that at the Troops Festive Dinner the empty table would not be there. He listened.

 

[Underway]

This is the problem. There is nothing wrong with Heart of Oak, but some "Good Idea Fairy" who wants some bubbles filled is pushing this, possibly under the veil of some perceived slight or insult. The insult is to sensible people that have better things to think about. Not 1 minute of CAF/RCN/DHH time should be spent, no, wasted on this.

This is the problem. The fact that you automatically dismiss the problem. Well there is something wrong with Heart of Oak. Plenty have been saying it for years. Its British and NOT something Canadian, and unlike a lot of inherited British ceremonial it hasn't evolved. And that's the core of the thing here.

I waste much more then a minute on useless ceremony every day as OOD. I think the RCN can afford some time to take a look at things and change them around if they don't make sense.

"Leading Change" isn't one anymore. PAR got rid of it. Won't help you get promoted so we can stop looking for that one as an excuse.

As for an insult to sensible people... lets have some soup. Always makes me feel better after the rage inducing morning emails. Oh but don't expect table service... that tradition is going away as well.

I’m not a big fan of the empty table. The mess dinner is a time for good cheer comradeship. If the PMC insists on the table then please skip the preamble, the Sunday toast covers that.

Tried that with a joint mess diner (in naval style). The Army Sgt/WO mess members just about started a fist fight they were so upset and created their own empty table (ripping apart the other tables to do it) even though they were told naval style mess diners do not have empty tables.

---

The reason Army and Airforce traditions are not as hotly debated here is because they were created by Canadians, for Canadians during Canadian conflicts. They were formed by each regiment at Ortona, Vimy, Somme, Kapyong etc... The empty table, the sombre formal mess diner (vice the rough and tumble RCN one), broomball and all the others.

In the formative years of the RCN, officers were trained on British ships, and often sailed on them. Thus ceremony/tradition is directly handed down and adapted. There was no fire and anvil of constant combat to develop a different identity. Heck the Canadian Corps had outright rejection of the UK way of doing things and created a different culture almost from the get go, particularly because they came from a classeless society.

If you want to understand the current CRCN is that he is a huge nationalist and not beholden to the "wish we were still British" naval sensibilities. Anything that smacks of jetisoning British and making it truely Canadian will find an ear.

Given that the best RCN traditions are the ones that are not codified and in some cases a bit silly:

• The Griffon on HMCS Ottawa in defiance of the ships crest
• the antlers for the bull sub on HMCS St. Johns
• the anchors for sea time hammered into the front of the bar on HMCS Toronto
• the stuffed parrots that infested HMCS Brandon's Ops room
• the Stokers Open
• Shaft Line Roulette
• CSE Dept chase the ace for charity (a new one)
• HMCS Protecteurs disadvantaged childrens Xmas party (which is held by HMCS Ottawa until Protecteur returns to the fleet) and flight deck sized Xmas present/toy drive
• Purple and Orange pens for the MSEO and CSEO respectively
• Hosting the first party on a new NATO with plenty of Moose Milk