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The War in Ukraine

Colin Parkinson said:
Ok I have not heard any major criticisms of that project before and generally the West Coast yards have a good rep for repair and upgrade work internationally. Can you expand upon this statement?
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There was potential for follow on work for other ships but that dried up very quickly.

Mod edit: article link removed. See Milnet.ca policy
 
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I don't think little dispute is a giant deal in the world of defence contracting. Things went much better for the Chilean T-23 update to CMS330.

And in honestly who else is going to come to Canada to update their ships?
 
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childs56 said:
I disagree, We have many smaller companies that provide critical specialized services to the larger defense companies. Although the small companies eventually get bought up. It still proves that we have the capability to do so.



You would be surprised how many skilled trades people there are across the country. Lots of smaller specialized shops building specific parts. If they all grouped together it would be pretty significant.
The real issue we are going to have in the next 10-20 years are all those hands on skilled people are going to be retired or passed on. That will leave a gap like we have not seen in our life times.

Lets not forget CNC has allowed us to machine and build more with less people.
I have seen a few shops transition an entire floor of machinists and go with cnc machines. (most were retiring and or they found other jobs for their people) but the transition has been on going for many years.
Don't kid ourselves there are still lots of skilled Trades people across Canada working in manufacturing.
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We don’t have enough tradespeople across the country for domestic needs currently. Let alone a wartime demand. Yes there is a good amount, but no where near the amount needed. That gap isn’t 10-20 years from now, that gap is today. We have 5 boomers left in my workplace. They have been working since the 70s-mid 80s. The next apprenticeship program my company ran was 2015.

Yes things like CNC can speed up processes, but my point is more how many CNC machines we possess in country. If a major war breaks out good luck getting more and there is basically no domestic manufacturing capacity for them.

CNC isn’t a cure all either. I have spent a decent amount of time on manual machines correcting mass produced CNC mistakes.

The more advanced technology gets the harder it is to duplicate it efficiently. For example 100 years ago machines were much more basic and easier to manufacture. Tooling was also much more basic. Its much easier to forge a piece of tool steel than it is to make a carbide insert. Just as its much easier to make a simple gear over a helical one.

Its not a matter of if we can ever figure it out, its a matter of how long it would take. By time we even got close to creating a industry worth ramping up the war would likely be over. And unfortunately for us our stockpiles are completely insufficient to do it on its own.
 
Eaglelord17 said:
We don’t have enough tradespeople across the country for domestic needs currently. Let alone a wartime demand. Yes there is a good amount, but no where near the amount needed. That gap isn’t 10-20 years from now, that gap is today. We have 5 boomers left in my workplace. They have been working since the 70s-mid 80s. The next apprenticeship program my company ran was 2015.

Yes things like CNC can speed up processes, but my point is more how many CNC machines we possess in country. If a major war breaks out good luck getting more and there is basically no domestic manufacturing capacity for them.

CNC isn’t a cure all either. I have spent a decent amount of time on manual machines correcting mass produced CNC mistakes.

The more advanced technology gets the harder it is to duplicate it efficiently. For example 100 years ago machines were much more basic and easier to manufacture. Tooling was also much more basic. Its much easier to forge a piece of tool steel than it is to make a carbide insert. Just as its much easier to make a simple gear over a helical one.

Its not a matter of if we can ever figure it out, its a matter of how long it would take. By time we even got close to creating a industry worth ramping up the war would likely be over. And unfortunately for us our stockpiles are completely insufficient to do it on its own.
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Decades of educational mismanagement are coming home to roost.

The billions and billion spent on higher education flushed down the toilet. Like any bubble the education bubble is about burst.

Just to get the temp here going....its like old only university grad can be officers and only officers can fly planes. Etc.... it all part of the education bubble
 
Eaglelord17 said:
We don’t have enough tradespeople across the country for domestic needs currently. Let alone a wartime demand. Yes there is a good amount, but no where near the amount needed. That gap isn’t 10-20 years from now, that gap is today. We have 5 boomers left in my workplace. They have been working since the 70s-mid 80s. The next apprenticeship program my company ran was 2015.

Yes things like CNC can speed up processes, but my point is more how many CNC machines we possess in country. If a major war breaks out good luck getting more and there is basically no domestic manufacturing capacity for them.

CNC isn’t a cure all either. I have spent a decent amount of time on manual machines correcting mass produced CNC mistakes.

The more advanced technology gets the harder it is to duplicate it efficiently. For example 100 years ago machines were much more basic and easier to manufacture. Tooling was also much more basic. Its much easier to forge a piece of tool steel than it is to make a carbide insert. Just as its much easier to make a simple gear over a helical one.

Its not a matter of if we can ever figure it out, its a matter of how long it would take. By time we even got close to creating a industry worth ramping up the war would likely be over. And unfortunately for us our stockpiles are completely insufficient to do it on its own.
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Guess where most of the tool bits come from as well........
 
Kirkhill said:
Wimp! Giving up that easily? ;)

Legitimate questions.

Do they still teach debating at school these days? Do they still have debating societies?
Do they still teach kids how to argue for fun and profit and insult each other civilly?
Do they still teach kids to be able to argue any issue from any side assigned?
Click to expand...
nope!
 
Interesting and under reported observation that, unfortunately had the common sense ring of truth to it.


Easy to imagine an agent in place in some general staff's shop now having greater access since his boss got promoted.

Zaluzhnyi was right to maintain tight op-sec given the penetration of society by Russian sympathisers.
 
Eaglelord17 said:
We don’t have enough tradespeople across the country for domestic needs currently. Let alone a wartime demand. Yes there is a good amount, but no where near the amount needed. That gap isn’t 10-20 years from now, that gap is today. We have 5 boomers left in my workplace. They have been working since the 70s-mid 80s. The next apprenticeship program my company ran was 2015.

Yes things like CNC can speed up processes, but my point is more how many CNC machines we possess in country. If a major war breaks out good luck getting more and there is basically no domestic manufacturing capacity for them.

CNC isn’t a cure all either. I have spent a decent amount of time on manual machines correcting mass produced CNC mistakes.

The more advanced technology gets the harder it is to duplicate it efficiently. For example 100 years ago machines were much more basic and easier to manufacture. Tooling was also much more basic. Its much easier to forge a piece of tool steel than it is to make a carbide insert. Just as its much easier to make a simple gear over a helical one.

Its not a matter of if we can ever figure it out, its a matter of how long it would take. By time we even got close to creating a industry worth ramping up the war would likely be over. And unfortunately for us our stockpiles are completely insufficient to do it on its own.
Click to expand...
My brother the 'tool and diesman' would completely agree.
 
Czech reprieve for Ukraine?

Russia went to war in Ukraine two years ago with twice as many artillery pieces as Ukraine had. But it isn’t the advantage in howitzers that really matters – it’s the advantage in shells.

After all, a single gun firing 50 shells a day is about as useful as two guns each firing 25.

For hundreds of years, artillery has dominated land warfare. Firing far and hitting hard, it’s the biggest killer of infantry, the main means of supporting an attack and the main means of supporting a defence.

It’s for that reason that, in charting the supply of artillery ammunition on both sides of a war, you can map the progress of that war. The side with the most shells is probably going to win.

And it’s why a surprise initiative, led by the Czech Republic and involving more than a dozen European countries, has been so critical to Ukraine’s survival as Russia’s wider war on the country grinds into its third year.

The Czechs found, for Ukraine, nearly a million shells precisely when Ukraine needed those million shells the most: at the peak of Russia’s winter offensive. It’s not an exaggeration to say that the Czech artillery initiative probably saved entire Ukrainian cities, by giving the Ukrainian army the firepower to resist a much bigger Russian army.
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By mid-February, the Russians were on the march in and around Avdiivka. The ammo-starved Ukrainian garrison retreated – and kept retreating as the Russians’ momentum carried them farther and farther west.

But then, on Feb. 18, Czech defense policy chief Jan Jires shocked his audience when he announced – at a Munich security conference – that his government had identified 800,000 artillery shells “sitting in non-Western countries.” Those countries apparently include South Korea, Turkey and South Africa.

The shells could be had for $1.5 billion, Czech officials said.

“Most of these countries [are] unwilling to support Ukraine directly for political reasons so they need a middleman,” Jires said, according to Politico reporter Paul McLeary and other sources. The Czech Republic would be that middleman, if Ukraine’s allies – other than the USA, of course – would help to pay for the ammo.

Belgium, Canada, Denmark and The Netherlands quickly signed up. Soon, another 13 countries joined the Czech artillery club. In three weeks, Jires and his colleagues collected all $1.5 billion. Shells were on their way within weeks.

With months’ worth of shells on the way, Ukrainian brigades no longer had to conserve what little ammo they’d been saving for emergencies. In early March, Ukraine’s batteries opened fire.

Five miles west of Avdiivka, Ukrainian troops halted their retreat, turned and counterattacked. Finally enjoying something approaching adequate artillery support, they stopped the Russian offensive dead in its tracks in villages with names like Berdychi, Orlivka and Tonen’ke.
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www.telegraph.co.uk

How the Czech Republic has just stopped Putin cold and saved Ukraine

Without help in the nick of time, Kyiv would probably have lost an entire oblast by now
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk

And useful effort from our government... money well spent in a timely manner.
 
Czech_pivo said:
My brother the 'tool and diesman' would completely agree.
Click to expand...

When we came to Canada in the 1960s most factories had their indispensable "tool and diemaker". And most of them seemed to come from Czechoslovakia - land of the Bren gun.


Eaglelord17 said:
We don’t have enough tradespeople across the country for domestic needs currently. Let alone a wartime demand. Yes there is a good amount, but no where near the amount needed. That gap isn’t 10-20 years from now, that gap is today. We have 5 boomers left in my workplace. They have been working since the 70s-mid 80s. The next apprenticeship program my company ran was 2015.

Yes things like CNC can speed up processes, but my point is more how many CNC machines we possess in country. If a major war breaks out good luck getting more and there is basically no domestic manufacturing capacity for them.

CNC isn’t a cure all either. I have spent a decent amount of time on manual machines correcting mass produced CNC mistakes.

The more advanced technology gets the harder it is to duplicate it efficiently. For example 100 years ago machines were much more basic and easier to manufacture. Tooling was also much more basic. Its much easier to forge a piece of tool steel than it is to make a carbide insert. Just as its much easier to make a simple gear over a helical one.

Its not a matter of if we can ever figure it out, its a matter of how long it would take. By time we even got close to creating a industry worth ramping up the war would likely be over. And unfortunately for us our stockpiles are completely insufficient to do it on its own.
Click to expand...

You are right about the limitations of the CNC system. It is only as good as the information supplied. And if the person inputting the information has never busted their knuckles trying to fix the problem for which the CNC generated part is being created then they are going to produce, in the thousands, something that is going to cause thousands of other busted knuckles.

You still need that mechanic in the field to define the problem and you still need that "tool and diemaker" to craft the solution. The CNC system only makes the "tool and diemaker" more productive. And that, in and of itself, is a good thing.

You are also right about the shortage of CNC based shops in Canada. And that is directly related to our declining per capita GDP and personal wealth.

Canada hires people that are not tool and diemakers and that are not mechanics and refuses to invest in CNC manufacturing.

To make Canada wealthy, to be able to supply universal health care and be able to defend our society effectively, we should be training youngsters as mechanics and tool and diemakers that know how to draught a CNC solution and investing in the CNC equipment to create thousands of modern smithies. Smithies and wrights that don't just work with metals but with all of the materials available these days.
 
Spencer100 said:
I don't think little dispute is a giant deal in the world of defence contracting. Things went much better for the Chilean T-23 update to CMS330.

And in honestly who else is going to come to Canada to update their ships?
Click to expand...
Did we go their to do the work or did they come here and do the work?
 
Lumber said:
Down there (Talcahuano Shipyards).
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The Canadian Shipyard lost the contract. There was some great potential for other ship upgrades after New Zealand's, that faded away. is unfortunate but they way Canadian shipyards do their work.
 
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