The Merged Thread on Gay/ Homosexual Topics and the CF.

[retiredgrunt45]

Now, as for a "recent immigrant" worried about CF members, then I think that the "recent immigrant" should perhaps STFU if he/she doesn't like it in THIS country, and perhaps go home and have a pride parade there

You took the words right out of my mouth. I don't think it would be much of a parade, but more along the lines of a firing squad.

We tolerate almost every imaginable group here in Canada, but for people who feel the need to abuse our tolerance, spewing garbage that we voilated their rights, I think its high time they reevaluated the reason they came to this country in the first place. Speaking for myself, my tolerance will only go so far for those "recent immigrants" who think we owe them something.

As for the people who are proud of there sexual affiliation, and who can freely peacefully demonstrate that right. hey the more power to ya, because that's what makes Canada a great country.

 

[vonGarvin]

Ok, let's get one thing straight.  The government, a surgery, NOTHING can change your gender from man to woman.  (though there are some cases, I know, where traits of both male and female exist in one person) A man is NOT pregnant as the article claims.  If someone changes their appendages from male to female, and lives as though they were of the opposite sex, well, that's fine.  "She" is pregnant, "he" is not (even if she wants to be called he, that's fine too, but I'm pretty certain that her DNA is still female, and her uterus appears to be functioning in the manner in which it was intended).  Be gay, be straight, be whatever, I couldn't care less.  I don't know why, but "he" is not a "she", or vice versa, or whatever.  And stop making a big deal of it.  I don't identify myself by my sexual preference.  Why should I?  Just as the closing line in that coming out song on "Brain Candy": WHO CARES?
Now, I do have some issue with the public display of pornography that can be found at Pride Parades.  What does simulated fellatio and other sex acts (all while dressed in a G-string, by the way) have to do with pride?  To me it seems more like "Exhibitionist Pride". 
The local Pride chapter in Saint John had a float in a Christmas Parade a few years ago.  No G Strings, just people out celebrating Christmas, handing out candy canes (they may have been rainbow, I can't remember, we got lots of treats that year).  Also saying in public "We're gay" without pushing limits.  Just being proud. 
Anyway, these are my thoughts on things.  And I must also say "SHAME" to Hamilton for refusing to allow CF members to join in on their parade.  I agree with the above poster: show up anyway and wear PT strip (or whatever) that says ARMY (or NAVY or AIR FORCE) and smile and wave at the crowd.  I think that it would crush many misconceptions about the army being non-inclusive.

 

[vonGarvin]

Ghyslyn, we do: Canada Day parades, Christmas parades, Remembrance Day parades, and many other local events such as the Apple Blossom parade where I'm from. All which you would probably consider 'normal.'

None of those parades focus on sexual orientation.  Other than Christmas, the others are all inclusive (Christmas used to be a christian holiday: i'm not sure what it is anymore).  I think the point is this: if being proud of sexual orientation is acceptable, then it must be for all sexual orientations, not just homosexuality.  If "Bob" can be proud of being gay, then why can't "Jane" be proud of being straight? 

 

[RiverDriver]

Mortarman: point of clarification: I was trying to prove to Ghyslyn was that we do, in fact, (in his/her words) have "..."normal" events about "normal" things..."

I agree with you in your above statements. I just thought I would clarify.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Interesting coverage by CBC Radio - they did a story on the Ontario news this morning, and mentioned that the first uniformed presence @ a gay pride parade was in Hamilton some years ago.  What the story neglects to mention, though, is that Hamilton didn't WANT a CF presence this  year - "fair and balanced', indeed.

Also, shared with the usual disclaimer, is an earlier story from the Hamilton Spectator, giving a bit more detail on the ban (as well as the ban's alleged "temporary" nature) - highlights mine...

Did confusion lead Pride to ban Forces?
Paul Morse, Hamilton Spectator, 18 Jun 08
Article link - .pdf permalink

Hamilton's Pride Festival says it banned the Canadian military this year because of its human rights violations around the world, including the native standoff in Caledonia.

Festival organizers were taken aback yesterday, though, to learn the standoff involved the Ontario Provincial Police, not the Canadian Forces.

"It was in terms of the (native) land claims and all that jazz that happened two years ago when military forces did come in and remove people from that land during the Caledonia standoff," said Emily Groom, co-chair of the Hamilton Pride Festival Inc., in a phone interview yesterday afternoon.

When it was pointed out Canadian soldiers were not at Caledonia, Groom said: "(Hamilton) Pride has every right not to affiliate with any institutions that perhaps are based on human rights concerns." Those include perceived violations in Afghanistan and Haiti, she said.

The decision has ignited a furious backlash within the gay community, with claims that it is contrary to gains since the military overturned its discriminatory policies against homosexuality in 1992.

"This is completely hypocritical," said David Towler, a human resources consultant who is gay. "The whole situation is just ridiculous."

The Canadian military has participated in the Hamilton festival for several years, marching in the parade and setting up recruiting booths.

Organizers say they banned the military from this year's festival, which ran June 6 to 15, because of a complaint from a new Canadian who feared the military because of previous persecution by soldiers. The decision was made at a private board meeting two months ago, Groom said.

"It was a temporary decision and only for this year until we can speak further with the community and with the military," said festival co-chair Joe Whelan.

A Department of National Defence spokesperson yesterday said DND was not able to comment at this time.

pmorse@thespec.com



1)  Nice to speak to the CF AFTER they're barred from an event, instead of before.

2)  The same person who says she didn't even know the CF isn't at Caledonia is in a position to talk about "perceived violations in Afghanistan and Haiti"?  Good credibility that...  :

 

[2 Cdo]

Interesting coverage by CBC Radio - they did a story on the Ontario news this morning, and mentioned that the first uniformed presence @ a gay pride parade was in Hamilton some years ago.  What the story neglects to mention, though, is that Hamilton didn't WANT a CF presence this  year - "fair and balanced', indeed.

Also, shared with the usual disclaimer, is an earlier story from the Hamilton Spectator, giving a bit more detail on the ban (as well as the ban's alleged "temporary" nature) - highlights mine...

Did confusion lead Pride to ban Forces?
Paul Morse, Hamilton Spectator, 18 Jun 08
Article link - .pdf permalink

Hamilton's Pride Festival says it banned the Canadian military this year because of its human rights violations around the world, including the native standoff in Caledonia.

Festival organizers were taken aback yesterday, though, to learn the standoff involved the Ontario Provincial Police, not the Canadian Forces.

"It was in terms of the (native) land claims and all that jazz that happened two years ago when military forces did come in and remove people from that land during the Caledonia standoff," said Emily Groom, co-chair of the Hamilton Pride Festival Inc., in a phone interview yesterday afternoon.

When it was pointed out Canadian soldiers were not at Caledonia, Groom said: "(Hamilton) Pride has every right not to affiliate with any institutions that perhaps are based on human rights concerns." Those include perceived violations in Afghanistan and Haiti, she said.

The decision has ignited a furious backlash within the gay community, with claims that it is contrary to gains since the military overturned its discriminatory policies against homosexuality in 1992.

"This is completely hypocritical," said David Towler, a human resources consultant who is gay. "The whole situation is just ridiculous."

The Canadian military has participated in the Hamilton festival for several years, marching in the parade and setting up recruiting booths.

Organizers say they banned the military from this year's festival, which ran June 6 to 15, because of a complaint from a new Canadian who feared the military because of previous persecution by soldiers. The decision was made at a private board meeting two months ago, Groom said.

"It was a temporary decision and only for this year until we can speak further with the community and with the military," said festival co-chair Joe Whelan.

A Department of National Defence spokesperson yesterday said DND was not able to comment at this time.

pmorse@thespec.com



1)  Nice to speak to the CF AFTER they're barred from an event, instead of before.

2)  The same person who says she didn't even know the CF isn't at Caledonia is in a position to talk about "perceived violations in Afghanistan and Haiti"?  Good credibility that...  :

Thanks Tony for posting an article that supports my earlier post about one-way tolerance.

 

[Bzzliteyr]

Wow, as I stated earlier ONE person managed to keep us out..

I can see it now:
"soldiers scare me!!"
"Well then, lets ban them all from our parade of acceptance!!"


good thing that immigrant wasn't ever assaulted or persecuted by a fellow gay!!! 

That would've been akward...

 

[George Wallace]

good thing that immigrant wasn't ever assaulted or persecuted by a fellow gay!!! 

That would've been akward...

You know that there is a possibility that they may have.  There is no saying what the sexual persuation was of the member(s) of the military from which they were persecuted.  Who knows?

 

[The Bread Guy]

Initial coverage indicates 10 troops in uniform in the parade, with ~1M "attending" the parade - following shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act....

CBC.ca:  "....Lt. Steven Churm, one of 10 soldiers from across the country who marched in uniform, said their presence sends a message that the Canadian military is inclusive and an equal-opportunity employer.  "The message to the public is that the Canadian Forces is an employer of choice. We have employment opportuntities that people can pursue, regardless of gender identity, sexual orientation," he told CBC News.  "For our own members, they can be proud of what they're doing and also be proud of who they are."  To mark its place in the festivities, the Canadian Forces set up an information booth in an area of the city where thousands of people gathered for the start of the parade....."

Photo from CBC

Canadian Press:  "For the first time ever, members of the Canadian Armed Forces were among those who danced, shimmied, and strutted their way through downtown Toronto today in the Gay Pride parade.  Warrant Officer John McDougall, who has been an openly gay member of the military for 13 years, says being able to march in the parade in uniform is "groundbreaking."...."

More from Canadian Press:  "Toronto Pride Executive director Fatima Amarshi said that the Armed Forces initiated their participation in the parade.  "We're all familiar with stories of lesbians and gays in the military and the struggle that they've had," she said. "So for the military to turn around and recognize its soldiers, the diversity within its ranks and the need to have a presence at Pride means a tremendous amount."  Earlier this month, the Gay Pride festival in Hamilton, Ont., banned the Canadian military because of alleged human rights violations around the world.  The decision ignited a furious backlash within some in the gay community who claimed that the military has changed since it overturned its discriminatory policies against homosexuality in 1992.  "Different members of our community have all kinds of different opinions on the military, and they will make sure they are heard quite loudly," Amarshi said.  She added that she didn't notice any "substantial" negative reactions to the military personnel in Toronto's parade ...."

- edited to add photo and latest CP excerpt -

 

[FascistLibertarian]

It makes me so happy that soldiers are ANGRY that they cant go to the parade in hamilton, I think that alone says tons about how accepting our society is.  ;D
Too bad I missed it for Euro cup, would have been nice to check out some hot soldiers.

As for the haters, comeon, its harmless fun. So many hetrosexuals act slutty as hell and they never have to answer for the hetrosexual community. And a lot of hetrosexuals are SO proud of their sexual orientation they are ready to fight to prove just how hetro they are.  :



Glad the soldiers were there, now if the CPC would get off its ass Id be in heaven.

 

[armyvern]

To each their own.

To some ... a bit of both. 

Good on them for showing up; greater still that they weren't shy to wear their uniforms.

If people find it (either a military presence in the parade / or the presence of homosexuals in the military) offensive, they are living in yesterday.

Don't we all have the right to just be happy with our NOK no matter their sex?

Crap, even my son, while in while in middle school debunked the "marriage is for procreation" myth one night while watching the raging debate on TV about the introduction of the Same-Sex Marriage legislation. The "traditionalist" came out with the arguement that "but they can't have children so they shouldn't be allowed to marry. That should be reserved for "families" as God intended." My son's response was "when are they going to make all the married people we know who don't have or want kids get divorced or not be allowed to get married unless they promise to have kids? -- that's stupid."

I was proud of him.

And, just as proud of my daughter who at 13 ... has a girlfriend. Yes, that's right - a girlfriend. She's quite happy (as happy as a 13 year old can be I guess with puppy love IIRC from my own youth). I asked her "are you happy" and she said "yes" - that's what's important to me. It may be a stage - it may not be, but it's what makes her happy right now. I'm good with that and I love her to death - she's a great kid. So is her girlfriend, and they looked awesome together at the Jr prom. Their peers accept them (and so do most adults). The youth of today are certainly more comfortable, aware and accepting of that which was "previously spoken of but not to be seen" - and that, as far as I'm concerned, is a very good thing.

I also think I made my thoughts on the matter quite clear to the school when they called me in the fall to tell me "Ms. X, I thought I should just call to let you know that B was holding hands and showing affection today outside of the school although we don't have a policy against that." Me: "Well why are you calling me then (really, I already knew the answer)?" "Well, because it was with another girl and we just thought that you should know."

My comment was: "Well, I already know that my daughter has a girlfriend and, if it were my son who was holding hands with a girl I wouldn't have gotten this call ... do you see a problem with that? Because I certainly do." Profuse apologies ensued.

 

[c_canuk]

As for the haters, comeon, its harmless fun. So many hetrosexuals act slutty as hell and they never have to answer for the hetrosexual community. And a lot of hetrosexuals are SO proud of their sexual orientation they are ready to fight to prove just how hetro they are.   

never? really...

I dunno, I'm sure if you had a straight parade (that didn't immediatly get labeled a hate crime), and featured an BSDM float, people would be in jail.

The two strip clubs in my town were harrased out of business by the city council. (they didn't like the fact that you could see both from the mayors office window)

Last I heard indecent exposure was still a crime.

I've had this argument with gay friends.

I suggested that the quickest way to get homosexuality accepted as mainstream was to parade in everyday work clothes, holding hands. An intentionally boring parade.

I figure that everything that is "shocking" behaviour that is not exclusive to homosexuals:

-distracts from the message
-puts things that should be behind closed doors in plain sight on public property and would normally end with criminal charges
-makes it seem that all homosexuals engage in those types of behaviour and believe that they should also be mainstream which is counter productive when trying to normalize their orientation to older conservative people who control the lion's share of votes.

it would be like having a Firearms Rights Parade and including a gang banger drive by float.

 

[armyvern]

never? really...

I dunno, I'm sure if you had a straight parade (that didn't immediatly get labeled a hate crime), and featured an BSDM float, people would be in jail.

Well really ... won't it just be even greater the day that we just fully accept everyone for who they are and "as normal" --- which would negate the need for the Pride parade?

Let's face it, they've still many steps to go and many obstacles to overcome with being outright treated as "normal" and gaining "acceptance" as a normal, routine, and everyday part of life even here in Canada. That's already the "norm" for hetero couples, ergo no need for a parade to draw attention to the hetero cause.

Yep, I certainly look forward to the day when a parade isn't required in order to gain tolerance and understanding of a cause. Acceptance, if you will. When finally being accepted and treated as "normal" ... perhaps then "normal" parade rules will apply, in that there will not be the requirement to parade to show that they too are just another average person trying to be happy in life and love.

 

[Springroll]

The youth of today are certainly more comfortable, aware and accepting of that which was "previously spoken of but not to be seen" - and that, as far as I'm concerned, is a very good thing.

My 13 yr old son was telling me that his middle school has a special program for students who are gay, lesbian, bi etc. He said he went along with a friend of his (who is openingly gay) and had an incredible time. They talked about how their families/friends feel, and just had a good chat session in general. A little over a month ago, my kids and I went to our first lesbian wedding. One of the brides was a co-worker of mine, but the kids had never met her. The kids had a great time, but it did spark questions from my 7 yr old son. He was polite and kept them in his head til we were alone, but I definitely confused him when he asked how they were going to have babies, and I told him of their plans...lol

I think our own tolerances and attitudes are what directly affect the way our children will react to a situation and if we have an open mind and don't judge, then they won't. Also, if the children feel like they can be open and honest at school, without fear, then we will continue to see this incredible growth in our children.

Good on you and on the way you are raising your kids, Vern. 

 

[Sub_Guy]

The world needs more Verns! 

The one thing I have going through my (very narrow mind) head though is this.  I know it is common for kids (or it was at some time) to have sleep overs, what happens when your kids are openly gay, does the sleep over disappear?  There would have been no way in the world for me to pull off a sleep over with my girlfriends when I was younger.


On the parade topic, why not just have a goddamn "love" parade, where everyone is welcome regardless of what you are doing behind closed doors or on the float. 

 

[armyvern]

The world needs more Verns! 

The one thing I have going through my (very narrow mind) head though is this.  I know it is common for kids (or it was at some time) to have sleep overs, what happens when your kids are openly gay, does the sleep over disappear?  There would have been no way in the world for me to pull off a sleep over with my girlfriends when I was younger.

On the parade topic, why not just have a goddamn "love" parade, where everyone is welcome regardless of what you are doing behind closed doors or on the float. 

Well, my daughter has had sleepovers - and her girlfriend has been at them. I call keeping control over what occurs at those sleepovers ... "parental supervision". I also provide that at my son's sleepovers.

That being said ... 10 girls crashing for the night (actually, it's usually the weekend vice a mere night around this house ...) as a formed group within the living room seems OK to me even if two happen to be gay. My daughter told me she was gay ... she didn't tell me she was also an exhibitionist. If she had, then I'd worry and my actions may be different. 

 

[Strike]

On the parade topic, why not just have a goddamn "love" parade, where everyone is welcome regardless of what you are doing behind closed doors or on the float. 

Perhaps that's where the parade is going?  I've known of parents marching with their kids, coworkers marching together to show support.  Heck, we've all seen the politicians marching as well.  Step by step...

 

[The Bread Guy]

The world needs more Verns! 

And Springrolls as well** - this part speaks volumes re:  child rearing:

.... it did spark questions from my 7 yr old son. He was polite and kept them in his head til we were alone ....

Well done to you, too!

** I refer to the plural of the poster/Army.ca member (although more of the delicious oriental "stuffed pasta" treats would not be out of line)

 

[vonGarvin]

On the parade topic, why not just have a goddamn "love" parade, where everyone is welcome regardless of what you are doing behind closed doors or on the float. 

Berlin already has one.  It would certainly be more inclusive than the current PC version(s).  "Gay rights" are here already.  Some people will refuse to accept homosexuality as normal, no matter what.  IMHO, the public display of images such as this:

rank up there with pictures such as this:

In other words, both are fine, but both have their places, and I don't think that place is on a city street.

 

[armyvern]

In other words, both are fine, but both have their places, and I don't think that place is on a city street.

Or the television screen where, with every commercial, one can witness the "sex sells" mantra that goes with drawing attention to a product or, in the Pride Parade's case, a cause. Or any magazine where one will be subject to the same "attention" getting tactics being employed.

It's all around us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W9NTEJOQrA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krhB_An8fT4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z2yudymW8o&feature=related

Barvaria Beer??

Pepsi a la Britney Spears, Beyonce & Pink

Don't take the kids to the parade. Change the channel. Don't buy the mag. The option is out there.