Surrey: Canadian military says no to 'Sikh cadet corps'

[Jarnhamar]

I spent many of my more formative years attending beavers, cubs, then scouts, in the basements of a number of churches... I don't think it ever had any positive or negative effects on my current religious leanings...

Fair enough. It still is a big possibility. We've commented often enough on here about profs at colleges and universities pushing their beliefs (not necessarily religion) onto students. It's not outside the realm of possibility.

For what it's worth, those current religious leanings are "respectfully militant atheist", and as an avowed atheist, I think you're all blowing this a bit out of proportion...

I'm not all that against the idea honestly.  I think aboriginal corps are a great idea, but they strike me as less religious. 
I think having a Sikh cadet corps out of a Sikh temple might be pushing boundaries.
This may be too much of a side bar but I think it's a slippery slope.    How well do you think a Jewish corps out of a synagogue would jive in the same city with a Muslim corps out of a mosque?  Can you imagine the constant shit storm that would cause?
I'm sure the kids wouldn't care all that much but I wouldn't trust the parents or especially the supporters/organizers to be mature about it.

I still think there is a huge difference between highland units and something based from religion, even if it's a nice friendly one.  The question truly is would they be able to pull this off while remaining religiously neutral.

“We don’t know any history about this guy so why put a name that doesn’t resonate or anything that has to do with the Sikh cadets at all,” he said. “It doesn’t make sense to me.”

Right here they are singling out the Sikh cadets and making the corps about them and not about the cadets in general.

If what PrairieThunder said about them getting upset over a non-Sikh CO is accurate then that's another issue all together and indicative, in my opinion, of an unhealthy mindset.

 

[JorgSlice]

If what PrairieThunder said about them getting upset over a non-Sikh CO is accurate then that's another issue all together and indicative, in my opinion, of an unhealthy mindset.

Well, they don't have a choice. It was one of the Conditions that RCSU(PAC) has put on to supporting the opening of this unit, they need someone there who knows what they're doing and to keep things in CADETS. The Major they have opted to send to that unit if it is opened is a very intelligent man that I have much respect for and would definitely keep everyone in line. It was just a sad thing to hear, 'tis all.

 

[MeatheadMick]

Although I'm all for having cultural pride, if you are serving as a Cadet organization that should come first. If they choose to be a religion oriented group, rather than a military related organization that can be proud of Sikh heritage than perhaps they should be content with being a youth group beyond the limitations of the Cadet Corps. Having a cultural uniform vice a traditional Cadet uniform may as well be part of the problem.  Our serving Regular Force and Primary Reserve members wear the Canadian Forces uniform with a Sikh headdress.

If this organization wants to be associated with the Canadian Forces, as the Cadets are, they should follow suit. I originally believed that they were having hard-ships naming a Cadet unit after their community for recruiting purposes and cultural belonging, but this does seem the issue.  If religion plays so strongly in this aspect, I revoke my original statement, as I clearly misunderstood the intent.  The Aboriginal unit mentioned can not be compared the same, as it is obvious that they are Cadets first, with a similar cultural heritage, as I believed the Sikh unit was trying to be.

Interesting Topic!

 

[daftandbarmy]

Although I'm all for having cultural pride, if you are serving as a Cadet organization that should come first. If they choose to be a religion oriented group, rather than a military related organization that can be proud of Sikh heritage than perhaps they should be content with being a youth group beyond the limitations of the Cadet Corps. Having a cultural uniform vice a traditional Cadet uniform may as well be part of the problem.  Our serving Regular Force and Primary Reserve members wear the Canadian Forces uniform with a Sikh headdress.

If this organization wants to be associated with the Canadian Forces, as the Cadets are, they should follow suit. I originally believed that they were having hard-ships naming a Cadet unit after their community for recruiting purposes and cultural belonging, but this does seem the issue.  If religion plays so strongly in this aspect, I revoke my original statement, as I clearly misunderstood the intent.  The Aboriginal unit mentioned can not be compared the same, as it is obvious that they are Cadets first, with a similar cultural heritage, as I believed the Sikh unit was trying to be.

Interesting Topic!

So how about the 'Junior Canadian Rangers (Sikh Contingent)'. The rest of the program seems to be fully dominated by one cultural group i.e., First NAtions/ Inuit, and could do with some balancing out.

http://www.jcr-rjc.ca/ove-ape/his/index-eng.asp

 

[JorgSlice]

So how about the 'Junior Canadian Rangers (Sikh Contingent)'. The rest of the program seems to be fully dominated by one cultural group i.e., First NAtions/ Inuit, and could do with some balancing out.

http://www.jcr-rjc.ca/ove-ape/his/index-eng.asp

Why does it have to be a "Sikh Contingent"? This is the problem I'm having. The JCR are not exclusive to only Aboriginals, it's ANYONE in Northern or Remote Canadian regions between 12-18 (and then there's the COATS/CIC staff).

If the Sikhs want to move north into remote communities that qualify for JCR, then they can open one/join one without all the "SIKH" overhead that they want to try it call it their own. It does not belong to them, or any one ethnic group in this country - it belongs to us all in equal parts.

 

[JorgSlice]

Update:
Reproduced under Fair Dealings Provisions under the Copyright Act

World Sikh Organization of Canada offers support to Sikh Cadet Corps push
Vancouverdesi.com
Article Link

The World Sikh Organization of Canada is offering their full support to the Surrey community in the fight for the Surrey Sikh cadet corps, it announced Tuesday.

“We’ll back up any petition they have put out,” Senior Policy Advisor Gian Singh Sandhu told VancovuerDesi.com. “(We’re) insisting that the government needs to come to the table and discuss with the community.”

...

“The community is really upset,” said Bhurji. “The reason everybody wanted their kids in it was because of the name.”

Bhurji, along with members of Surrey’s South Asian community – including school boards and temples – have united to put together a petition in an effort to fight for the Sikh Cadet Corps.

...

“Being called the ‘Surrey Sikhs’ would honour and celebrate the history of Sikh regiments and would be no different than names currently in use honouring other historic regiments such as the Highlanders, Irish or Hussars,” WSO President Prem Singh Vinning said in a release.

The organization is calling for a review of the decision.

Do they really stand a chance? This is getting ridiculous.

I especially like the part:

“Being called the ‘Surrey Sikhs’ would honour and celebrate the history of Sikh regiments and would be no different than names currently in use honouring other historic regiments such as the Highlanders, Irish or Hussars,” WSO President Prem Singh Vinning said in a release.

He's really up to snuff on his Canadian Military history huh?

 

[MeatheadMick]

I can't get over this:

“The community is really upset,” said Bhurji. “The reason everybody wanted their kids in it was because of the name.”

It's obviously not about being a Cadet if it's all about the name. Still too much at stake with religion vs the traditional role of the Cadets.  Culture and diversity is one thing, but if all the community cares about is the name... then as I stated before, create a religious youth group as a separate entity away from the Cadet Corps.

 

[JorgSlice]

In the end, the British Columbia Regiment (Duke of Connaught's Own) had plans to sponsor another Cadet unit affiliated to them in Surrey (apart from the already existing Cadet units in Vancouver, Powell River, Port Moody and Richmond) and the CF has the ultimate ruling when it comes to these things, it will be opened as 3300 The British Columbia Regiment (Duke of Connaught's Own) Royal Canadian Army Cadet Corps and the Sikh community will just have to deal with the reality of it. If they wish to boycott the Canadian Cadet Organizations because they didn't get their way, then let them. There will be many more dedicated and proud youth that will join it without trying to threaten the governments.

 

[garb811]

In the end, the British Columbia Regiment (Duke of Connaught's Own) had plans to sponsor another Cadet unit affiliated to them in Surrey (apart from the already existing Cadet units in Vancouver, Powell River, Port Moody and Richmond) and the CF has the ultimate ruling when it comes to these things, it will be opened as 3300 The British Columbia Regiment (Duke of Connaught's Own) Royal Canadian Army Cadet Corps and the Sikh community will just have to deal with the reality of it. If they wish to boycott the Canadian Cadet Organizations because they didn't get their way, then let them. There will be many more dedicated and proud youth that will join it without trying to threaten the governments.

That's a pretty definitive statement.  Source?

 

[JorgSlice]

That's a pretty definitive statement.  Source?

Uhh... well... I think you got me on that one.

It was talk out of RCSU(PAC) for quite some time, several of my colleagues that are Reservist ULOs or CIC officers had been given tentative offers to go to this unit. Now I realize it may not actually be this particular unit, however there is at least going to be a unit stand up in Surrey affiliated to BCR.

Looking at it now, I should have had some more solid info and not "flapped the gums" as much.  :-\

 

[Maxadia]

I think the one glaring and most potentially damning problem of this entire topic has been mentioned several times, but in passing: the parents.

If the parents get themselves into the mode of " it's OUR cadet group and WE  want to decide how it is run", there is no telling the amount of stupidity that can come out of it by letting them have their way with the naming of the unit.  First it's the name, then it's a small religious component, then all of a sudden some whack job opposes half the training because they're a pacifist or something and it's too "militaristic."

I've seen it happen with school groups all the time...teams, trips, etc.  Sometimes, someone just needs to step up to the plate and say the buck stops here.  There's plenty of other parents out there who will appreciate that sort of stance being taken.

 

[Ignatius J. Reilly]

:goodpost:

I agree entirely.

 

[Jarnhamar]

It's obviously not about being a Cadet if it's all about the name. Still too much at stake with religion vs the traditional role of the Cadets.  Culture and diversity is one thing, but if all the community cares about is the name... then as I stated before, create a religious youth group as a separate entity away from the Cadet Corps.

Excellent point.  The hang up on the name does seem to indicate a certain mindset.

If the parents get themselves into the mode of " it's OUR cadet group and WE  want to decide how it is run", there is no telling the amount of stupidity that can come out of it by letting them have their way with the naming of the unit.  First it's the name, then it's a small religious component, then all of a sudden some whack job opposes half the training because they're a pacifist or something and it's too "militaristic."

Great point.  They've already ordered special turbans and shoes- I have a feeling this would turn out to be a battle of what could they change (get away with) next.

 

[Northalbertan]

I believe it boils down to this.  The MOU clearly defines the roles that the various Leagues, Sponsoring Committees, and the CF are responsible for within the CCO.  I can say for certain that religious teachings are NOT part of what we do.  The CF does make available culturally specific items such as turbans if the cadets want to wear them.  I even know of a cadet corps in Saskatchewan that had skirts made for a few cadets whose religious beliefs forbade them from wearing pants.  We try to be as accommodating as we can to ENCOURAGE diversity and be all inclusive, not exclusive.

The CF provides the basic uniforms.  Highland cadet corps either have their affiliated unit supply accoutrements or the sponsoring committee raises money to purchase them.  CATOs clearly define what is allowed.  I am unsure of the process in naming a cadet corps but believe it is the CF that has the final say.  The sponsoring committee should have known from the beginning what their role would be in standing up this corps.

I wish the new CO a lot of luck.  The staff here are going to have their hands very full and having the media keeping an eye on things to this degree is not going to make the job any easier.


Northalbertan

 

[rwgill]

I am unsure of the process in naming a cadet corps but believe it is the CF that has the final say. 

Name and number (not UIC) of a Cadet Corps is assigned by the Army Cadet League of Canada.
http://www.armycadetleague.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Policy-3.8-Forming-a-Cadet-Corps-Rev-Sep-2012.pdf

Assignment of names and numbers to a new cadet corps will be administered by the National Office and authorized by the Executive Committee. A name shall not suggest that the cadet corps is closed to any group nor shall it reflect any posture offensive to Canadians.

However, IAW CATO 11-10, DND appears to be required to agree (although the only specific limitation appears to be against the naming of a unit after a living person).  I am not sure who has the true trump card.

That said, Cadet Corps do and have had names with religious affiliations,  #2 Bishop's College being the most well known and oldest.  Some are/were named after their sponsors, others a training location and others a geographic area (which makes avoiding religion very difficult). Sponsorship has also come from several religious organizations and continues to.  Cadet Units do parade in houses of worship and religious schools.

 

[ModlrMike]

Sponsorship has also come from several religious organizations and continues to.  Cadet Units do parade in houses of worship and religious schools.

True, but those Corps do not provide religious instruction:

The XXX Cadet Corps (Surrey Sikh) is open to all Canadian youth to enlist. It is our mission that cadets in our unit learn the bedrock Sikh values of being a “Saint-Soldier” or of standing up for those who are defenceless in the face of tyranny.

That's the part most of us have issues with. Not with the Sikh part specifically, but with the religious part in general. I would have the same opinion if for example the Knights of Columbus sponsored a corps with the desire to make the children better Catholics.



Edited for clarity.

 

[JorgSlice]

Name and number (not UIC) of a Cadet Corps is assigned by the Army Cadet League of Canada.
http://www.armycadetleague.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Policy-3.8-Forming-a-Cadet-Corps-Rev-Sep-2012.pdf

However, IAW CATO 11-10, DND appears to be required to agree (although the only specific limitation appears to be against the naming of a unit after a living person).  I am not sure who has the true trump card.

That said, Cadet Corps do and have had names with religious affiliations,  #2 Bishop's College being the most well known and oldest.  Some are/were named after their sponsors, others a training location and others a geographic area (which makes avoiding religion very difficult). Sponsorship has also come from several religious organizations and continues to.  Cadet Units do parade in houses of worship and religious schools.

Bishop's College is hardly the same as naming it after a religion like "Catholic Cadets", same as "St. Andrews College". They are cadet units, named after their schools. Both Bishop's and St. Andrews are non-religious schools despite the fact that St. Andrews used to be, their cadet unit and academics have no religious influence anymore.

I have never heard of any cadet units being named after churches or sponsors (apart from the Affiliated Unit). Care to provide some examples? Cadets parade in religious facilities however they do not have a a Religious Organizing committee demanding they be named after their religion and have religious teachings included.

 

[my72jeep]

Bishop's College is hardly the same as naming it after a religion like "Catholic Cadets", same as "St. Andrews College". They are cadet units, named after their schools. Both Bishop's and St. Andrews are non-religious schools despite the fact that St. Andrews used to be, their cadet unit and academics have no religious influence anymore.

I have never heard of any cadet units being named after churches or sponsors (apart from the Affiliated Unit). Care to provide some examples? Cadets parade in religious facilities however they do not have a a Religious Organizing committee demanding they be named after their religion and have religious teachings included.

2415 Gonzaga High School Army Cadet Corps named after the Catholic High School that is there Sponsor. 2355 Church Lads Brigade Cadet Corps, 3012 Our Lady of Lourdes Army Cadet Corps. shall I carry on?

 

[JorgSlice]

2415 Gonzaga High School Army Cadet Corps named after the Catholic High School that is there Sponsor. 2355 Church Lads Brigade Cadet Corps, 3012 Our Lady of Lourdes Army Cadet Corps. shall I carry on?

Our Lady of Lourdes was renamed to Lynx in 1994 as the cadets came from a broad range of communities and a more all-inclusive and generic name was needed.

Gonzaga is no longer a catholic school as it is now a non-denominational coeducation institute.

Church Lads is the only one that I know of that currently retains a religious affiliation, and it shouldn't to reflect the regulations and the purpose of the cadet movement. But as I said, the Sikhs just want the name Sikh so that can have something that is there's. The article said so itself, they wanted their children to join only because of the name. They don't care about the Army Cadet program, they want the name, and to teach Sikhism. The old "church" affiliations had no hand in preaching their teachings in the units.

 

[my72jeep]

Our Lady of Lourdes was renamed to Lynx in 1994 as the cadets came from a broad range of communities and a more all-inclusive and generic name was needed.

Gonzaga is no longer a catholic school as it is now a non-denominational coeducation institute.

Church Lads is the only one that I know of that currently retains a religious affiliation, and it shouldn't to reflect the regulations and the purpose of the cadet movement. But as I said, the Sikhs just want the name Sikh so that can have something that is there's. The article said so itself, they wanted their children to join only because of the name. They don't care about the Army Cadet program, they want the name, and to teach Sikhism. The old "church" affiliations had no hand in preaching their teachings in the units.

Hell you don't need to convince me I agree with you. I was pointing out that there are some Cadet units with Religious names.