Replacing the Subs

[dimsum]

When confronted with the "you're recruiting whole gangs" statement a friend of mine who was in US Army recruiting replied.. "I know. The big green machine needs to be fed and it doesn't care what feeds it."

The US Army, in particular, has a thing going on right now that if you recruit (I guess recommend) a friend to join, you can get early promoted for certain junior NCM ranks.

Recruiting Pilot, Soldier Referral Program, offers promotion incentives for Soldiers

FORT KNOX, Ky. — The U.S. Army is offering promotion incentives to Soldiers who refer individuals to their local recruiting station. The Soldier Referra...

www.army.mil

 

[KevinB]

The US Army, in particular, has a thing going on right now that if you recruit (I guess recommend) a friend to join, you can get early promoted for certain junior NCM ranks.

Recruiting Pilot, Soldier Referral Program, offers promotion incentives for Soldiers

FORT KNOX, Ky. — The U.S. Army is offering promotion incentives to Soldiers who refer individuals to their local recruiting station. The Soldier Referra...

www.army.mil

The Guard did that in the 80’s and 90’s — Stripes for Buddies.

 

[Rainbow1910]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720061350968234314

Preliminary delivery date for the Canadian Patrol Submarine Project is set for 2035?

Cmdre Jason Armstrong, MSM, CD Director General Naval Force Development, RCN is providing a detailed update on the Canadian Patrol Submarine Project (CPSP) at #DeepBlueForum - it is absolutely vital to get this project right. Delivery date - 2035! #ArcticSovereignty

 

[calculus]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720061350968234314

Preliminary delivery date for the Canadian Patrol Submarine Project is set for 2035?

And note the players making presentations:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720090010916168064

Where are the Japanese?

 

[KevinB]

Sorry but I can't see the $ or the PY for this.

 

[Lumber]

Sorry but I can't see the $ or the PY for this.

Me either. We can a half decent surface fleet, or we can have a half decent submarine fleet. We can't have both.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Sorry but I can't see the $ or the PY for this.

This is Canada sir, that's not how defence procurements are presented to industry.

Just because we don't have enough funding for what is already on the books, people for the existing PMOs, or crew, doesn't mean we won't pretend this is a reasonable date.

 

[GR66]

Don't worry...by 2035 there will be hordes of unemployed as a result of increasing carbon taxes that will be desperate for any type of work. As for the $, don't worry...the budget will balance itself!

 

[Happy Guy]

Based on the information given, this seems to be Phase 2 - Project Definition and Planning Phase in which the team analyzes what is the current operational deficiency of the current platform and then identifies what it wants the new platform to do - statement of requirements (SOR)

My guess is that the government will allow this phase to continue up to the SOR and the identifications of options available. This work will take years and the government can claim that they are looking for a submarine replacement to satisfy the Americans and our NATO Allies. This timetable will conveniently lead up to the next federal election in which the next government will have to decide whether to proceed further or not.

The government has promised increases in the defence budget in the successive years, as stated by MND Blair, but his statement contradicts the order to find $1B in savings over the next 3 years. Plus the current economists believe that Canada is in a recession now based on the latest economic data. Canada seems to be headed towards a period of low or stagnant economic growth for a period of time. There will be pressure to decrease public spending, without cutting social programs, and to balance the budget. Since the Defence budget represents the largest discretionary expenditure it is the biggest target for cuts. I believe that the government will announce that the submarine project will either be: (1) put on hold; (2) or be ordered to considerably slow its pace; or (3) be cancelled.

 

[childs56]

Sorry but I can't see the $ or the PY for this.

I think we could. First thing we have to do is perform a proper audit of where our money goes. Then get rid of the waste and adjust where the money goes and direct it to the proper areas. We are dealing with government kickbacks on everything. we cant even build a surface fleet without major issues or even buy a darn jet that is already in service elsewhere with out wasting money lining the pockets of politicians and their friends.

 

[KevinB]

I think we could.

Agreed, but...

First thing we have to do is perform a proper audit of where our money goes. Then get rid of the waste and adjust where the money goes and direct it to the proper areas. We are dealing with government kickbacks on everything. we can't even build a surface fleet without major issues or even buy a darn jet that is already in service elsewhere with out wasting money lining the pockets of politicians and their friends.

The fact that after the Halifax class were built you shut down your shipbuilding (at least combatant craft) industry was a travesty.
You're now stuck with the pain of rebuilding it.
If the CSC build goes as planned, that shouldn't ever occur again - as one would hope by the end of 15 CSC that there is already a replacement planned and underway - or at least building a modernized flight of CSC to replace the worn out ones.

WRT to Submarines, based on the KPP the RCN had released before, the only viable option was the SSN - which I think we all know won't occur at this junction in time for Canada. This AIP SSK seems to me more like re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic - as while they would be an upgrade from the used Uk junk you got, they dont fulfill the nations requirements for a submarine in terms of range, and mission scope.
Furthermore as there are no CDN sub builders, there is no real work force to benefit from a purchase (as we have seen the GoC regardless of Party is quite willing to buy stuff for CDN job creation, but major programs beyond that have issues...

 

[GR66]

How many more P-8's, MQ-9B Sea Guardians, Cyclones and XLUUV's could you buy for the price of 6-8 SSK's. Obviously not an apples-to-apples capability comparison but which might better meet our defence requirements?

 

[childs56]

Agreed, but...

The fact that after the Halifax class were built you shut down your shipbuilding (at least combatant craft) industry was a travesty.
You're now stuck with the pain of rebuilding it.
If the CSC build goes as planned, that shouldn't ever occur again - as one would hope by the end of 15 CSC that there is already a replacement planned and underway - or at least building a modernized flight of CSC to replace the worn out ones.

That was the plan with the Halifax Class, it was to transform the Canadian Ship Building industry and keep the expertise here, so they could plan, develop and build the replacement ships. With the least amount of issues. They closed the line down, and failed to market our ships internationally at the time were highly regarded.

WRT to Submarines, based on the KPP the RCN had released before, the only viable option was the SSN - which I think we all know won't occur at this junction in time for Canada. This AIP SSK seems to me more like re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic - as while they would be an upgrade from the used Uk junk you got, they dont fulfill the nations requirements for a submarine in terms of range, and mission scope.
Furthermore as there are no CDN sub builders, there is no real work force to benefit from a purchase (as we have seen the GoC regardless of Party is quite willing to buy stuff for CDN job creation, but major programs beyond that have issues...

I have to wonder about the repairs made to the Boat that ran aground and fixing of the pressure hull, does Canada actually have the expertise to build subs and we choose not to. Or is it so far out of our league?
If we can fix, replace pressure hull pieces, we can build ships, we should be able to build a whole sub. Even if we buy designs off a Foreign Country, maybe the US has some DE plans laying around we can Canadianize.

 

[KevinB]

Submarine building isn’t easy and a surface combatant shipyard isn’t building submarines.
I tend to doubt that Canada has the ability to repair that sort of damage — I suspect that the know how for that needed to be imported or at least heavily monitors and detailed out by others.

 

[NavyShooter]

Incorrect. Our Halifax Class ships WERE marketed internationally. We sent one to the middle east in 1994 if I recall correctly, and I was pulled off my QL3 course several times to form an Honour Guard in Dockyard in Halifax for multiple visiting foreign Defense ministers and Naval staff.

The Halifax Class were a good ASW focused frigate, but did not truly fill the 'multi-role' capability in the way that the Perry Class (and others) could do. Our missiles were RIM-7's, and they were point defense only. If they'd fitted the Halifax Class with the ability to take SM1 or SM2, that would have probably been a game changer, and they'd have been VERY desirable to other navies.

NS

 

[Rainbow1910]

Incorrect. Our Halifax Class ships WERE marketed internationally. We sent one to the middle east in 1994 if I recall correctly, and I was pulled off my QL3 course several times to form an Honour Guard in Dockyard in Halifax for multiple visiting foreign Defense ministers and Naval staff.

The Halifax Class were a good ASW focused frigate, but did not truly fill the 'multi-role' capability in the way that the Perry Class (and others) could do. Our missiles were RIM-7's, and they were point defense only. If they'd fitted the Halifax Class with the ability to take SM1 or SM2, that would have probably been a game changer, and they'd have been VERY desirable to other navies.

NS

As far as I can tell, there was export design options available from Saint John's based off the Halifax class that did incorporate SM-2 missiles. I've included them below but from what I can gather, none of these options were ever seriously taken up by any interested parties.

 

[GK .Dundas]

There was supposed to be a third production run of six more frigates but Perrin Beatty's White Paper on Defence and promise of SSNs with all the strategic potential they implied put paid to the Province/Scimitar class.
Eighteen frigates and four destroyers strikes me as very useful fleet.

 

[Spencer100]

There was supposed to be a third production run of six more frigates but Perrin Beatty's White Paper on Defence and promise of SSNs with all the strategic potential they implied put paid to the Province/Scimitar class.
Eighteen frigates and four destroyers strikes me as very useful fleet.

I think the plan was just 18 frigates. But the last 6 would have been larger and had the Standard missiles. The fours destroyers retired.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Sorry but I can't see the $ or the PY for this.

Actually if you hasten the sub deal you can point to savings by not having to upkeep a orphan fleet near the end of their life. I also expect the SK will dangle some nonmilitary economic sweeteners. Getting a NATO member to buy their sub might be worthwhile to them. I wonder if there is anyone interested in our Victoria Class for a reasonable price?

 

[KevinB]

Actually if you hasten the sub deal you can point to savings by not having to upkeep an orphan fleet near the end of their life. I also expect the SK will dangle some nonmilitary economic sweeteners. Getting a NATO member to buy their sub might be worthwhile to them.

Doesn’t solve the no money no crew issues.
Unless SK starts up a SPA and MBT line in Canada - but again a money issue for the Army.

I wonder if there is anyone interested in our Victoria Class for a reasonable price?

Not sure even a Mall would certify them at this point.