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Reaction to soldiers' deaths 'is really going over the top,' retired general say

Thompson_JM

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Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act (http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/info/act-e.html#rid-33409).

http://www.hamiltonspectator.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=hamilton/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1145829010207&call_pageid=1020420665036&col=1112101662670

Cool the Rhetoric

Reaction to soldiers' deaths 'is really going over the top,' retired general says,

By Bruce Cheadle
The Canadian Press
OTTAWA (Apr 24, 2006)
The Maple Leaf is not flying at half-mast over Parliament Hill and Prime Minister Stephen Harper is unlikely to travel to CFB Trenton, Ont., to meet the latest war dead, as the Conservative government returns to past protocol in response to mounting casualties in Afghanistan.

Neither development is disrespectful, military analysts said yesterday and may, in fact, help cool what some seasoned soldiers are calling an "over the top" media and public reaction to the inevitable wages of war.

Lewis Mackenzie, the retired major general, a former member of the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry and one-time federal Conservative candidate, said he was taken aback by full-page newspaper accounts yesterday screaming Death in the Desert and Day of Death in Afghanistan.

"As a Patricia, you say to yourself, 'This is really going over the top,'" Mackenzie said from his central Ontario home.

"Those people who are sitting on the fence in their support for the mission -- which they don't really understand -- could well have their opinion affected by what's going on the last couple of days."

Canada's intermittent military casualties have generated wall-to-wall coverage on all-news TV networks and days of front-page newspaper treatment ever since the first four soldiers died in a friendly fire incident in Afghanistan four years ago.

Liberal prime minister Jean Chretien, opposition party leaders, the defence minister and the chief of defence staff all attended a sombre ceremony at Trenton when those first casualties returned in April 2002, a regimen that has been regularly followed since. The Peace Tower flag was lowered to half-mast, a new practice that stuck until last November.

Contrast that to the United States, where the Pentagon clamped down on all media coverage of war dead at the start of the Iraq war in 2003.

Yesterday, as Canadian media chronicled the ultimate sacrifice of Corporal Matthew Dinning, Bombardier Myles Mansell, Lieutenant William Turner and Corporal Randy Payne, the deaths of eight U.S. soldiers in Iraq on the weekend was a footnote in most U.S. media.

Cliff Chadderton, War Amps CEO and chair of the National Council of Veteran Associations, said the Bush administration has made the same mistake as an earlier White House with Vietnam, attempting to suppress information while it has brazened out the Iraq conflict at heavy public price.

"In the Canadian government, we have done the opposite," said the Second World War veteran.

"Let's OK sending troops to Afghanistan -- but if there are casualties, let's play it up as a national disaster. Well, it is a disaster, but it's not a national disaster.

"Just simply tell the public the truth, instead of all this play-acting and 'should we put the flag at half staff or not.'"

But scaling back official reaction to combat deaths is a sensitive subject.

Although no final decision has been made, the prime minister probably won't be in Trenton when the four bodies are returned for burial. Sources indicate Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor and General Rick Hillier, the chief of defence staff, will likely attend.

Critics have already pounced on the flag decision, even though there were four recent combat deaths that didn't get the Peace Tower salute prior to the latest group. All the formal protocols continue, including public statements of condolence and private contact with soldiers families.

"If you have a tragedy like this and the government reacts to it with a shrug -- saying, 'well, there's going to be more of that to come' -- that doesn't do much to solidify or maintain existing public support for the mission," said David Rudd of the Canadian Institute of Strategic Studies.

"But by the same token, you don't want to drift into a state of self-analysis or self-flagellation every time there's a casualty."

For people like Catherine Garrison of Halifax, whose 18-year-old son has volunteered to go to Afghanistan early next year, the issue strikes close to home.

She said she'd like to see the flags lowered across the country for combat casualties, but gave a more nuanced response to the saturated media coverage.

"The grieving process I think should be a private thing for the families of the individuals that have to suffer through it," said Garrison.

"It certainly makes others aware of what's going on, but these are people's loved ones and the media and politicians have to respect that it's a great loss."


In true media fashion... this is on page A10 of the spectator... but the "DEATH IN THE DESERT" was the headlines the day before..... I'm with piper as far as getting really sick of the media sensationalizing on these issues.... we are at war, and people die in war.... these men's deaths are horrible and tragic, and we should remember them for the sacrifice they made, but we also accept the risks when we deploy.

The Reason Canada keeps loosing Good men over there is because some [modified for content] find a way to weasel out of the tour! but that's my opinion...

Regards
- Josh
 
I am not sure if I agree with your last sentence (the rest was "cut and paste" for the most part...).

We have more than just good "men" serving in deployed op's.  Also...at this time...with 4 of our fallen soldiers being put to their final resting places...is this really an appropriate comment?  I bet there are some (or all) Rear Party folks for the current Roto who don't fall into your [modified for content] catagory that might take some offence to that comment...I think, rather, that "we" are loosing good men (your words not mine) over there is because "we" have people brave and couragous enough to step up, to man their post...in a dangerous place...to make the lives of those less fortunate than us...better...alittle bit more...every single day.

Just took a quick boo at your profile...you mentioned that "we" are at war and "we" take risks when "we" deploy.  Heading to A-stan soon are you?  Or should I just take that as a "general" comment meaning "we" as a country.  Hamilton is a loooooooooong way away from Astan or anywhere's else were CF members put their meat on the line every day...just making sure there isn't a flashlight stuck up your *** when you look in the mirror.


 
Mud Recce Man said:
I am not sure if I agree with your last sentence (the rest was "cut and paste" for the most part...).

We have more than just good "men" serving in deployed op's.  Also...at this time...with 4 of our fallen soldiers being put to their final resting places...is this really an appropriate comment?  I bet there are some (or all) Rear Party folks for the current Roto who don't fall into the a$$hole catagory that might take some offence to that comment...I think, rather, that "we" are loosing good men (your words not mine) over there is because "we" have people brave and couragous enough to step up, to man their post...in a dangerous place...to make the lives of those less fortunate than us...better...alittle bit more...every single day.

Just took a quick boo at your profile...you mentioned that "we" are at war and "we" take risks when "we" deploy.  Heading to A-stan soon are you?  Or should I just take that as a "general" comment meaning "we" as a country.  Hamilton is a loooooooooong way away from Astan or anywhere's else were CF members put their meat on the line every day...just making sure there isn't a flashlight stuck up your *** when you look in the mirror.

I did mean it as a Country, Though Ive put my name in for Roto, its still a long process before I know if Im going over.  I think youre reading a little too much into my last comment, or I failed to make it clear enough. If thats the case then my apologies. I have the utmost respect for those who serve this country with pride whether it be overseas or here in Canada That goes for both genders. I was referring to the "people in Green" Types who use the military only as a paycheck and nothing more. Who try to take as much as they can from the job while giving as little possible in return. During a time when four Heros are being laid to rest it only angers me more that there are those who would do such a thing. I understand that not everyone can or will deploy for Various reasons. However, there is a MAJOR difference between not being selected, or DAG-ing red for a legitimate issue, and intentionally trying to find a reason to not go over.... Ive put my name in, and in light of the recent events going on over there, Im more then a little nervous. But the reality is that If I as a soldier am not willing to go and do my part when asked, then why am I wearing this uniform?

And You are right, Hamilton isnt exactly that close to some of the worlds hotspots, but there are quite a few members of my unit who have been all over this earth serving the CF. Golan, Hati, Cyprus, Bosnia, Kosovo, and Afghanistan. we have send our boys and girls into the same places you guys go, to do the Same Job. The Reason I have my job right now is because the individual who was doing it, is now overseas in Kandahar. I am Hoping that by this time next year I will be there myself. Doing the Job I signed up for. Oh, by the way, I keep my Flashlight in my TacVest, but thanks for asking.

Regards
  Josh
 
Keep it civil here, folks.

And for one, I agree with not half-masting the flag, and not making a big deal out of the deaths of four of our soldiers.  And before the friendly fire starts, let me explain why.

When I first saw that the flags across Canada would not be half-masted, I was pissed.  Until I read some of the commentary in here that put it into perspective.  I'm not tech savvy enough to drop back to the last thread, but it was said that "yes, you have hurt us, but we remain, and will continue to do so."

A-stan sucks, no doubt.  But we are there to do a job.  And that job is going to carry losses.  Do we forget those losses?  Hell no.  Do we make it a point to wage an internal battle to stay or leave?  HELL NO!

I raised a glass to the four recent fallen like I have every soldier that has fallen since I was in (and since I was out).  But it doesn't make my belief in their mission waver.  Those soldiers are honored by that flag staying proud and at full mast.  They are not forgotten.
 
Well put Blackhorse7.  There is another thread underway on the flag flap, so maybe further discussion on that aspect should go there.
 
"But by the same token, you don't want to drift into a state of self-analysis or self-flagellation every time there's a casualty."

And that's what the media are doing. As tragic as the deaths are, there is a time, a place, and a perspective on the grieving. I think, for the most part, the most appropriate response has been on this website, and I appreciate it very much.
 
when four Heros are being laid to rest

Just a quick question Cpl Thompson but why, exactly, are the four soldiers who were killed "heroes"?

Without making light of their sacrifice, they were good men who stepped up to the plate when it was their turn and did their job. Being killed overseas does not make you a hero, the use of that particular word EVERYTIME someone is killed in the Forces SOON diminishes the value of the word. Let's just leave it as, four good, possibly brave, and maybe heroic men.
 
I use the term hero a lot. Why because few terms adequately describes the efforts and sacrifices soldiers make in serving their country. As the following shows:

Definition of "hero"
American Heritage Dictionary

1. In mythology and legend, a man, often of divine ancestry, who is endowed with great courage and strength, celebrated for his bold exploits, and favored by the gods.
2. A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war.

Perhaps the question should be 2 Cdo, not why are they heroes, but why don't we use the word more often. I disagree that it diminishes the value of the word. I think it puts rather succinctly how I feel about all soldiers, and those that serve their country in what ever capacity (police, firefighters etc.).

I would rather have my kids hear me describe our fallen soldiers as heroes (something I always make a point of doing) then have them think a sports star, musician or movie star might be a hero. As my quote says, All my heroes are soldiers...and all my soldiers are heroes.  :salute:

 
Sadly, I predict that if the numbers continue to climb, the media will loose interest, except for "interesting" numbers ie) 50th, 100th, new highest #'s killed in a single event, etc.  Most media have ADD, and once enough of the lads pay the ultimate price and the stories are not "flashy" enough for our respective rags, you won't see so much coverage.  Plus, once the area is stable enough for some real positive building efforts, hospitals, schools etc, watch the media shut off the camera's immediately.  Nobody wants to promote good press, very un Canadian... :threat:
 
I think our troops should get out of there. To many of our Canadian men our dieing. And for what the Americans.( come on). Canada is the peace keepers it is not our job to fight with the Americans. The Americans our big enough they dont need Canada to fight for them. I dont know about your people that are going to read this but I think thats just dumb. :salute: :cdn: :salute: :cdn: :salute: :cdn: :salute: :cdn: :salute: :cdn:: :salute: :cdn: :salute: :cdn: :salute: :cdn: :salute: :cdn:
 
arme4me

This is not a 'Children's Forum'.  Please refrain from posting if you are not able to Spell or make coherent sentences.  I would also suggest that you go to School and become more educated on our Country's Politics, Military History, Foreign Policies and more.  Some study on your part of Geography and Current Events would also help you to understand the World Situation a little more than what you know now.  Currently, you have just shown us all your total lack of knowledge on any of the matters that we are discussing on this site.

On that note, please read and understand the following:


MSN and ICQ "short hand" -  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33247.0.html

Regarding the use of "MSN speak" versus the employment of prose which is correct in grammar, spelling and punctuation, please see: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/34015/post-260446.html#msg260446

Army.ca Conduct Guidelines: MUST READ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937.0.html

FRIENDLY ADVICE TO NEW MEMBERS - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937/post-259412.html#msg259412

Recruiting FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21101.0.html

Infantry FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21131.0.html

Canadian Forces Aptitude Test - http://army.ca/forums/threads/21101/post-103977.html#msg103977

Fitness requirements at enrolment, see page 12 of this brochure:
http://www.recruiting.forces.ca/media/pdf/physical_fitness_en.pdf

Search page - http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?action=search;advanced


To summarize. Welcome to Army.ca, start reading.

 
army4me said:
I think our troops should get out of there. To many of our Canadian men our dieing. And for what the Americans.( come on). Canada is the peace keepers it is not our job to fight with the Americans. The Americans our big enough they dont need Canada to fight for them. I dont know about your people that are going to read this but I think thats just dumb.

Hmmm...if we had more people like you making descions back in 1938, we'd all be goose-stepping right about now.

Immature, ignorant, selfish, childish....and trollish.

Do us all a favour and do some research before posting on this topic again.

Regards
 
Cpl Thompson,

Just checkin' to make sure its being kept real.  I don't include myself in the "we" that have been or are soon deploying.  I think, out of respect for the guys and gals puttin' it on the line over there today...and tomorrow.  Just saw alot of "we" in your post...nuff said.

Franko,

Goose-stepping?  Krikkies, I can't get "left-right-left" down yet!  ;)  But your point is well made. 

I am personally tired of the politicians using flag raising, media coverage in Trenton, etc etc to try to score the points in the political battle and the troops are being used as, seemingly, pawns to "get one up on the other Party".  THATS the biggest disrespect I see here... :threat:

MRM
 
George Wallace said:
MSN and ICQ "short hand" -  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33247.0.html

Regarding the use of "MSN speak" versus the employment of prose which is correct in grammar, spelling and punctuation, please see: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/34015/post-260446.html#msg260446

Army.ca Conduct Guidelines: MUST READ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937.0.html

FRIENDLY ADVICE TO NEW MEMBERS - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937/post-259412.html#msg259412

Recruiting FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21101.0.html

Infantry FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21131.0.html

Canadian Forces Aptitude Test - http://army.ca/forums/threads/21101/post-103977.html#msg103977

Fitness requirements at enrolment, see page 12 of this brochure:
http://www.recruiting.forces.ca/media/pdf/physical_fitness_en.pdf

Search page - http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?action=search;advanced


To summarize. Welcome to Army.ca, start reading.

Gee you've been using this one a lot lately, George.  Maybe we need to hire some new bouncers!
 
I'm retired now, but I served for a good, long time.  My experience spans the "Beach Tours" of Cyprus (my apologies to the veterans of '74, but you get my drift) to the "Friendly Fire Incident" of 2002.  I have been personally involved in the repatriation of the remains of 14 soldiers (including the four of 2002).  Every one of them constitutes a dark mark on my heart - we won't even get into the wounded.

I agree with MGen (Ret'd) McKenzie.  We cannot, and should not, dip the symbol of the nation for every casualty.  Their home Regiment, home town, and perhaps their home province may dip their flags, but NOT the nation.  To dip the national symbol is to acknowledge that the nation has been sorely wounded - the death of a soldier, albeit tragic, is NOT a national wound.

The Liberals broke with tradition and made every overseas death a "national tragedy" - the present government is attempting to bring us back to traditional practice. 

All that being said, my heart goes out to the families of our fallen - some feel that the flag should be half-masted, some feel otherwise.  With all due respect to those family members, I believe that the public and political reaction to our war dead and wounded since 2002 has been "over the top", and we need to remember our fallen in a formal way on 11 November every year, and through our ACTUAL, and HEARTFELT (not symbolic and meaningless) actions every day.

For what it's worth - from a "Been There, Done That, Got the T-Shirt"


Roy Harding

 
Roy Harding said:
The Liberals broke with tradition and made every overseas death a "national tragedy" - the present government is attempting to bring us back to traditional practice. 

I have my own "theory" as to why the Liberals did this.  Details aside, there were strong political motives for this which had nothing to do with honouring the fallen.  That the public gave forth so much support to the fallen, the mission and the CF was, in my opinion, an unintiended consequence.

As I said in the "flag" thread, and it applies here as well, we should stay with tradition.  That's the way MY family would want it.
 
Roy Harding,

I hope that post was copied and sent to a National Newspaper? That is a very good message.

Apollo
 
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