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ex-Sup said:
I would agree with everything you said there...
Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled
- Thread starter ex-Sup
- Start date
I would agree with everything you said there...
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Greymatters said:
You gave this answer to a quote that one could interpret as you agreeing that ex-Sup "is confused".
Clarity. >
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Hey, my head might be spinning right now (no, I'm not possessed), but I don't think I'm confusedGeorge Wallace said:I would agree with everything you said there...
You gave this answer to a quote that one could interpret as you agreeing that ex-Sup "is confused".
Clarity. >
After re-reading Greymatters post a few times I think I know what he's getting at.
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I know. However, it was a good example of how things could be misconstrued.
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George Wallace said:You gave this answer to a quote that one could interpret as you agreeing that ex-Sup "is confused".
Clarity. >
Ouch! Good point - I meant I agreed with his response (everything after his statement of being confused)...
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The Ottawa Citizen published an item today on Caroline Orchard's online petition opposing the provincial policy allowing students multiple opportunities for missed deadlines and academic dishonesty. While this petition is for Ottawa area at the moment, the story mentions, she is looking at expanding it for other cities in Canada.
If students are not expected to submit work in on time and with honesty in school, how can they be expected to do so in university?
If students are not expected to submit work in on time and with honesty in school, how can they be expected to do so in university?
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Hmmmm...interesting. While I totally agree with the petition, I doubt it will get anywhere. The province is currently revising the entire document covering assessment and evaluation (http://www.ocup.org/resources/documents/EDU_GS_binder_010708_BMv2.pdf already mentioned in a previous post), I have a feeling that they already have mind what they want to do. What that is however, who knows. As an aside, I did find out last week that it's implementation has been pushed back to Sept 2010.kratz said:
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Thought some of the posters for this particular thread wouldf be interested in this article fm the Edmonton Journal last Monday. Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act.
'No-zero' policy gives students a do-over
Deadlines in the adult world often just as flexible: supporters
By Sarah O'Donnell, The Edmonton JournalMay 11, 2009
Zero is becoming the toughest mark for students to earn in a growing number of Edmonton-area schools.
Many schools have adopted a "no-zero" policy when it comes to assignments and tests, giving students multiple opportunities to hand in work past deadline or to redo failing assignments or tests.
It is part of a national trend proponents say will help ensure more students make it through the school system, learn course material and succeed. Critics argue it fails to prepare students for the real world.
In the Edmonton Public school district, many schools, particularly junior and senior highs, have operated under no-zero policies for several years.
While the no-zero approach is not an official district-wide policy, Edmonton Public's director of teaching and learning support services said it is a topic principals and teachers talk about regularly.
"It's a philosophy about not giving up on kids," Corrie Ziegler said. "We will do everything we can before we give any child a zero. We want to give them every opportunity."
Jasper Place High School, which at 2,400 students is one of Edmonton's largest, operates under a "reluctant zero" approach.
"We're not saying no zeros equals no work," principal Jean Stiles said. "We're saying we're not going to let a student off the hook from learning the material."
Jasper Place's reluctant zero policy means a student who misses a deadline can still hand in an assignment. Students who simply refuse to hand in assignments by the end of the term can still earn a failing grade, but it may be described as "unable to assess."
Students need extensions or second chances for many reasons, Stiles said. Some are so busy with extracurricular activities that their schedule makes some homework deadlines tricky. Others have to balance studies with family issues or a part-time job.
And sometimes, a student just has trouble with a subject and needs extra time and help to learn the material. In the past, Stiles said, many of those students would stop coming to school if they fell behind and felt it was impossible to catch up.
"Life gets in the way sometimes," Stiles said. "We're saying we want to make accurate decisions about student achievement. We can't do that if we don't have evidence to support it."
Although many Alberta educators have enthusiastically embraced the no-zero philosophy, some teachers and parents question the concept.
In Ontario, a two-year-old provincewide policy requires teachers to give students multiple chances to turn in assignments and even to resubmit work if they are caught cheating. An Ottawa math teacher has launched an online petition to have the policy reversed.
Caroline Orchard, a teacher of 34 years, told the Ottawa Citizen she believes the no-zero policy prevents some students from learning skills such as time management and the importance of meeting deadlines.
Some British Columbia teachers also complained at their annual B.C. Teachers' Federation in March that such policies undermine a teacher's professional autonomy and "dumb down" public education.
In Alberta, there are no provincewide policies related to how students are assessed throughout the year. Instead, Alberta Education spokeswoman Kathy Telfer said, the province's main concern is whether a student meets a series of prescribed targets by the end of the year.
Alberta Teachers' Association president Frank Bruseker said teachers who have talked to him question whether such school policies really help students.
"If the policy is no-zero, then how does it really help the student?" Bruseker said. "The notion is one of consequence."
More at this link:
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/News/zero+policy+gives+students+over/1583025/story.html
As I've posted previously on this thread, I've seen first-hand the results of this ill-conceived notion. Students entering post-secondary education having "passed" Math 30 (academic math, or--as they like to call it--Math Pure) who can't calculate perimeter, area, or volume. The "no student left behind" rationale is turning into "no student fit for the outside world".
'No-zero' policy gives students a do-over
Deadlines in the adult world often just as flexible: supporters
By Sarah O'Donnell, The Edmonton JournalMay 11, 2009
Zero is becoming the toughest mark for students to earn in a growing number of Edmonton-area schools.
Many schools have adopted a "no-zero" policy when it comes to assignments and tests, giving students multiple opportunities to hand in work past deadline or to redo failing assignments or tests.
It is part of a national trend proponents say will help ensure more students make it through the school system, learn course material and succeed. Critics argue it fails to prepare students for the real world.
In the Edmonton Public school district, many schools, particularly junior and senior highs, have operated under no-zero policies for several years.
While the no-zero approach is not an official district-wide policy, Edmonton Public's director of teaching and learning support services said it is a topic principals and teachers talk about regularly.
"It's a philosophy about not giving up on kids," Corrie Ziegler said. "We will do everything we can before we give any child a zero. We want to give them every opportunity."
Jasper Place High School, which at 2,400 students is one of Edmonton's largest, operates under a "reluctant zero" approach.
"We're not saying no zeros equals no work," principal Jean Stiles said. "We're saying we're not going to let a student off the hook from learning the material."
Jasper Place's reluctant zero policy means a student who misses a deadline can still hand in an assignment. Students who simply refuse to hand in assignments by the end of the term can still earn a failing grade, but it may be described as "unable to assess."
Students need extensions or second chances for many reasons, Stiles said. Some are so busy with extracurricular activities that their schedule makes some homework deadlines tricky. Others have to balance studies with family issues or a part-time job.
And sometimes, a student just has trouble with a subject and needs extra time and help to learn the material. In the past, Stiles said, many of those students would stop coming to school if they fell behind and felt it was impossible to catch up.
"Life gets in the way sometimes," Stiles said. "We're saying we want to make accurate decisions about student achievement. We can't do that if we don't have evidence to support it."
Although many Alberta educators have enthusiastically embraced the no-zero philosophy, some teachers and parents question the concept.
In Ontario, a two-year-old provincewide policy requires teachers to give students multiple chances to turn in assignments and even to resubmit work if they are caught cheating. An Ottawa math teacher has launched an online petition to have the policy reversed.
Caroline Orchard, a teacher of 34 years, told the Ottawa Citizen she believes the no-zero policy prevents some students from learning skills such as time management and the importance of meeting deadlines.
Some British Columbia teachers also complained at their annual B.C. Teachers' Federation in March that such policies undermine a teacher's professional autonomy and "dumb down" public education.
In Alberta, there are no provincewide policies related to how students are assessed throughout the year. Instead, Alberta Education spokeswoman Kathy Telfer said, the province's main concern is whether a student meets a series of prescribed targets by the end of the year.
Alberta Teachers' Association president Frank Bruseker said teachers who have talked to him question whether such school policies really help students.
"If the policy is no-zero, then how does it really help the student?" Bruseker said. "The notion is one of consequence."
More at this link:
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/News/zero+policy+gives+students+over/1583025/story.html
As I've posted previously on this thread, I've seen first-hand the results of this ill-conceived notion. Students entering post-secondary education having "passed" Math 30 (academic math, or--as they like to call it--Math Pure) who can't calculate perimeter, area, or volume. The "no student left behind" rationale is turning into "no student fit for the outside world".
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Lil_T said:
Yep, my Dad dumped me off at the Recruiters.
Mind you, I then discovered Cpls and MCpls who......uh, "discouraged" such behaviour. ;D
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Wow, I don't know how I missed this thread.
The whole issue of zeros for missing or late is indeed a hot button issue. I'm presently on a board committee trying to rework our assessment and evaluation policy for our grade 7 and 8 students. We are in a holding pattern until the ministry completes their work, hopefully in September 2010. One of the problems, I'm facing is that I have to help inservice the other teachers when the policy is complete. It's going to be tough trying sell the "no zero" policy if, in fact, it remains.
Just playing devil's advocate, so please be gentle, but....
What is the purpose of assessing or evaluating a piece of work? Is it to see if the student has learned the material or to assess work habits? If a student can demonstrate mastery with one assignment why should they be given a lower mark, indicating a lack of mastery, if others are missing?
On the Ontario report card for elementary school there is a section that reports on learning skills (work habits etc). All of the good teachers I know spend more time on this section of the report than any other. It could be argued that this section of the report should be given greater emphasis by everyone else as well.
Learning skills should be a contributing factor in determining promotion or graduation.
The whole issue of zeros for missing or late is indeed a hot button issue. I'm presently on a board committee trying to rework our assessment and evaluation policy for our grade 7 and 8 students. We are in a holding pattern until the ministry completes their work, hopefully in September 2010. One of the problems, I'm facing is that I have to help inservice the other teachers when the policy is complete. It's going to be tough trying sell the "no zero" policy if, in fact, it remains.
Just playing devil's advocate, so please be gentle, but....
What is the purpose of assessing or evaluating a piece of work? Is it to see if the student has learned the material or to assess work habits? If a student can demonstrate mastery with one assignment why should they be given a lower mark, indicating a lack of mastery, if others are missing?
On the Ontario report card for elementary school there is a section that reports on learning skills (work habits etc). All of the good teachers I know spend more time on this section of the report than any other. It could be argued that this section of the report should be given greater emphasis by everyone else as well.
Learning skills should be a contributing factor in determining promotion or graduation.
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I love how everything gets pushed back; it was supposed to be out this Sept.Spanky said:
Just got a forwarded email from Ben Levin, who is the Deputy Minister of Education, responding to the whole media criticism of no zeros, late assignments, etc. I only skimmed through it quickly, but I was going to post the little introduction (lest I get in poop for revealing something "confidential"). But alas, the document is secured, therefore no copy function. When I get chance to read through it thoroughly, I'll give you the scoop.
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Time is not a concept but a physical parameter as much as distance, mass and energy.
We have all watches, clocks and so on, because we are surrounded by deadline issues, even our own life has a final deadline. It will be wonderfull if society will tell me, Hey don't bother with deadlines, we are going to give you a second and a third chance to achieve the project, to take care of the patient, to submit your application, or to pay your bills
Our economical system is based on competition, and the bottom line is time. You have to find a new idea or solve a problem before other, and after thinking fast, you need to act fast and move on. We are involved in a long Marathon where in many careers, there is no second place. I don't necessary agree with this system, but for many, competition (and against time mainly) is the rule.
I don't know for high school, but in general at the university level, students are often marked on how much they learn per unit of time. It is the leaning curve in function of time, the SPEED. Again, I don't say it is the good way to do things, but in many universities, time constraint is the challenge that new students will face.
Finally, time is the only physical data that you will never recover, you can not go back, you can't put time in a bank, invest it and use it later on, I'll say that time worth more than money, but that may be true when you get older and you have less time head.
But, hey that is my :2c:, and my point is that if you want to prepare kids for university, well they have to take seriously deadline and to know how to prioritize and organize their stuff to get there in time.
We have all watches, clocks and so on, because we are surrounded by deadline issues, even our own life has a final deadline. It will be wonderfull if society will tell me, Hey don't bother with deadlines, we are going to give you a second and a third chance to achieve the project, to take care of the patient, to submit your application, or to pay your bills
Our economical system is based on competition, and the bottom line is time. You have to find a new idea or solve a problem before other, and after thinking fast, you need to act fast and move on. We are involved in a long Marathon where in many careers, there is no second place. I don't necessary agree with this system, but for many, competition (and against time mainly) is the rule.
I don't know for high school, but in general at the university level, students are often marked on how much they learn per unit of time. It is the leaning curve in function of time, the SPEED. Again, I don't say it is the good way to do things, but in many universities, time constraint is the challenge that new students will face.
Finally, time is the only physical data that you will never recover, you can not go back, you can't put time in a bank, invest it and use it later on, I'll say that time worth more than money, but that may be true when you get older and you have less time head.
But, hey that is my :2c:, and my point is that if you want to prepare kids for university, well they have to take seriously deadline and to know how to prioritize and organize their stuff to get there in time.
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I think we should also keep in mind that not everyone goes to university (nor should they have to), so our system isn't entirely tailored for post secondary education. Granted, first year uni can be a bit of a trial by fire, but by 4 years you can become a pretty powerful researcher. That will serve them well in the future (directly or indirectly).
The one thing I would change is the complete ignorance of many high school academic advisors. My transition to post secondary would have gone a lot smoother had they known what in the blue blazes was good preparatory material for my major. In that respect though, I have a feeling private school will always be better. Of course the very thought of paying more for private school vs. university boggles my mind.
meph.
The one thing I would change is the complete ignorance of many high school academic advisors. My transition to post secondary would have gone a lot smoother had they known what in the blue blazes was good preparatory material for my major. In that respect though, I have a feeling private school will always be better. Of course the very thought of paying more for private school vs. university boggles my mind.
meph.
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I agree with you, but I still think that the school system should help kids to learn sooner than later that a deadline is a deadline. Even when they are 100% busy, to learn how to organize their time and activities to meet the expectations. Of course, parents also have to enforce it. University or not, the speed at which you can learn and apply your knowledge and life experiences to solve a daily life problem or a work challenge is one of the keys to success; and it can be learned early in childhood.
For the zero policy, I usually don't give a zero unless the homework I am marking is completely out of the expectations that I clearly indicated to them, or handed really late without a fair explanation. However, marking, and the student's fear to get a bad mark, is one of the critical tool a prof has in hand to punish (the stick for donkey) or to reward (the carrot for donkey) the student.
Talking about private versus public school is a new thread on its own !
I would be interested to hear from a couple of senior profs if students of today are less mature than in the past.
For the zero policy, I usually don't give a zero unless the homework I am marking is completely out of the expectations that I clearly indicated to them, or handed really late without a fair explanation. However, marking, and the student's fear to get a bad mark, is one of the critical tool a prof has in hand to punish (the stick for donkey) or to reward (the carrot for donkey) the student.
Talking about private versus public school is a new thread on its own !
I would be interested to hear from a couple of senior profs if students of today are less mature than in the past.
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Here's the latest:
Canadians worried about education system: poll
OTTAWA -- As young people prepare to don caps and gowns this month and take the stage to grab their diplomas, Canadians confess a certain skepticism about the value of an education in this country. Nearly half of the Canadians polled in a recent Harris-Decima survey said they feel Canada's educational system does not adequately prepare young people for work in the modern economy.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090621/education_canada_090621/20090621?hub=Canada
I just finished marking my Gr.10 Applied history exams; I have to counter that society doesn't adequately prepare students for my classroom. Nice kids, but by far the laziest, unmotivated bunch I've ever had. Worst marks too...I won't even mention the class average for the exam, it makes me want to pull my hair out (if I had any). 19 more years? If this is it, I'm going to lose my mind.
Canadians worried about education system: poll
OTTAWA -- As young people prepare to don caps and gowns this month and take the stage to grab their diplomas, Canadians confess a certain skepticism about the value of an education in this country. Nearly half of the Canadians polled in a recent Harris-Decima survey said they feel Canada's educational system does not adequately prepare young people for work in the modern economy.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090621/education_canada_090621/20090621?hub=Canada
I just finished marking my Gr.10 Applied history exams; I have to counter that society doesn't adequately prepare students for my classroom. Nice kids, but by far the laziest, unmotivated bunch I've ever had. Worst marks too...I won't even mention the class average for the exam, it makes me want to pull my hair out (if I had any). 19 more years? If this is it, I'm going to lose my mind.
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Digging at old wounds here. I read this article in yesterday's Ottawa Citizen. Here it is from the original publisher, The Telegraph (U.K.):
We must allow children the chance to fail
Life skills are as important as exams and IQ, says Yvonne Roberts.
Article Link
Sonny Grainger, aged 12, is described as a "one-boy wave of terror". He has been expelled from three schools and has tormented the lives of his neighbours. To his mother, however, Sonny's problem is not discipline; she says Sonny is suffering from Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD), which causes him to be "hostile to authority figures".
ODD is said to affect up to 16 per cent of children. The "treatment" includes anger management and the teaching of social skills. But some argue that the real problem is that these youngsters have never been taught how to think of others or how to make sense of their own emotions. If Sonny continues to treat his neighbourhood as a war zone, then by his teens he will undoubtedly become one of the growing army of young people not in employment, education or training – the "Neets" – who already number one million.
The search for solutions to the problem of what is fast becoming a lost generation is creating some strange alliances. Last week, two opposing politicians agreed that a new form of National Service was needed. Frank Field, the Labour MP, advocated a compulsory six-month stint of service: a commando course in citizenship. Tim Loughton, the shadow minister for children and young people, offered a less drastic solution, suggesting a voluntary three-week session that would inculcate "self-respect, achievement and respect for others".
Loughton points out that a high proportion of teenagers say that their lives "lack purpose"; a number of international studies concur that the UK's young people are the most likely in industrial Europe to have a poor sense of wellbeing. And the recession is going to make things worse for young people across the academic spectrum. With 40,000 new graduates predicted to have a degree but no immediate career, a form of short-term civic service looks like treatment for a pimple when a plague of boils has broken out.
Of course, there are large numbers of young adults who are giving something back, finding jobs and living normal lives. But what is lacking in many other cases, and what many schools fail to prioritise, is the acquisition of grit, self-discipline and a sense of self-awareness.
Evidence from around the world shows that these skills contribute as much to success
at work and in life as IQ and academic qualifications. Yet a growing number of children find it difficult to manage their own emotions, or show empathy and understanding. They appear unable to exercise self-discipline or delay gratification. They cannot communicate effectively or work collaboratively. All these skills are necessary in life, and in a globalised job market. So why are they so difficult to acquire?
A friend's son may provide a clue. He is 18, privately educated, and has flunked his exams. He is musically talented, but expects to acquire fame without effort. He believes he is special because his parents – lovingly, mistakenly – have told him so, in a middle-class corruption of the cult of celebrity. As some parents erase every difficulty, their children never enter the school of hard knocks. As the psychologist Prof Martin Seligman, author of The Optimistic Child, points out, "Children need to fail… If we leap in to bolster self-esteem to soften the blows… we make it harder for them to achieve mastery."
But the problems of the cosseted middle classes pale in comparison to the children struggling with poverty and deprivation. Often prematurely branded as failures by the education system, many of these children lack the life skills that were once acquired from stable families or apprenticeships.
James Heckman, the American economist and Nobel laureate, has shown that, in some cases, well-developed social and emotional capabilities – the kind of "character education" taught by public schools for centuries – are more important than IQ.
A recent American review of 207 programmes teaching these qualities showed an 11 per cent improvement in achievement tests, and a 10 per cent decrease in misbehaviour, depression and anxiety. Too often in Britain
we fail to tell children this inspirational story: they might not be the brightest, but they can still be the best.
What we need, then, is an end to the one-size-fits-all model in state schools, and to move to a system that encourages children of every level of intellectual ability to make the most of their assets. Some schools have already broken free, and others should be allowed to follow – my own group, the Young Foundation, supports a number of projects to bring together the best of vocational and academic education with social and emotional development.
An education system fit for the 21st century would be diverse. Its aim should not just be academic success, but the creation of a good citizen. It would also be one very positive way in which we could reboot social mobility and revive the civic sphere – as well as giving children like Sonny a springboard to a better future.
Comments can be seen at link
Oppositional Defiance Disorder?? Give me a freakin' break! : Article makes some excellent points, though and most of the comments are worth reading.
We must allow children the chance to fail
Life skills are as important as exams and IQ, says Yvonne Roberts.
Article Link
Sonny Grainger, aged 12, is described as a "one-boy wave of terror". He has been expelled from three schools and has tormented the lives of his neighbours. To his mother, however, Sonny's problem is not discipline; she says Sonny is suffering from Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD), which causes him to be "hostile to authority figures".
ODD is said to affect up to 16 per cent of children. The "treatment" includes anger management and the teaching of social skills. But some argue that the real problem is that these youngsters have never been taught how to think of others or how to make sense of their own emotions. If Sonny continues to treat his neighbourhood as a war zone, then by his teens he will undoubtedly become one of the growing army of young people not in employment, education or training – the "Neets" – who already number one million.
The search for solutions to the problem of what is fast becoming a lost generation is creating some strange alliances. Last week, two opposing politicians agreed that a new form of National Service was needed. Frank Field, the Labour MP, advocated a compulsory six-month stint of service: a commando course in citizenship. Tim Loughton, the shadow minister for children and young people, offered a less drastic solution, suggesting a voluntary three-week session that would inculcate "self-respect, achievement and respect for others".
Loughton points out that a high proportion of teenagers say that their lives "lack purpose"; a number of international studies concur that the UK's young people are the most likely in industrial Europe to have a poor sense of wellbeing. And the recession is going to make things worse for young people across the academic spectrum. With 40,000 new graduates predicted to have a degree but no immediate career, a form of short-term civic service looks like treatment for a pimple when a plague of boils has broken out.
Of course, there are large numbers of young adults who are giving something back, finding jobs and living normal lives. But what is lacking in many other cases, and what many schools fail to prioritise, is the acquisition of grit, self-discipline and a sense of self-awareness.
Evidence from around the world shows that these skills contribute as much to success
at work and in life as IQ and academic qualifications. Yet a growing number of children find it difficult to manage their own emotions, or show empathy and understanding. They appear unable to exercise self-discipline or delay gratification. They cannot communicate effectively or work collaboratively. All these skills are necessary in life, and in a globalised job market. So why are they so difficult to acquire?
A friend's son may provide a clue. He is 18, privately educated, and has flunked his exams. He is musically talented, but expects to acquire fame without effort. He believes he is special because his parents – lovingly, mistakenly – have told him so, in a middle-class corruption of the cult of celebrity. As some parents erase every difficulty, their children never enter the school of hard knocks. As the psychologist Prof Martin Seligman, author of The Optimistic Child, points out, "Children need to fail… If we leap in to bolster self-esteem to soften the blows… we make it harder for them to achieve mastery."
But the problems of the cosseted middle classes pale in comparison to the children struggling with poverty and deprivation. Often prematurely branded as failures by the education system, many of these children lack the life skills that were once acquired from stable families or apprenticeships.
James Heckman, the American economist and Nobel laureate, has shown that, in some cases, well-developed social and emotional capabilities – the kind of "character education" taught by public schools for centuries – are more important than IQ.
A recent American review of 207 programmes teaching these qualities showed an 11 per cent improvement in achievement tests, and a 10 per cent decrease in misbehaviour, depression and anxiety. Too often in Britain
we fail to tell children this inspirational story: they might not be the brightest, but they can still be the best.
What we need, then, is an end to the one-size-fits-all model in state schools, and to move to a system that encourages children of every level of intellectual ability to make the most of their assets. Some schools have already broken free, and others should be allowed to follow – my own group, the Young Foundation, supports a number of projects to bring together the best of vocational and academic education with social and emotional development.
An education system fit for the 21st century would be diverse. Its aim should not just be academic success, but the creation of a good citizen. It would also be one very positive way in which we could reboot social mobility and revive the civic sphere – as well as giving children like Sonny a springboard to a better future.
Comments can be seen at link
Oppositional Defiance Disorder?? Give me a freakin' break! :
Article makes some excellent points, though and most of the comments are worth reading.
