PERs : All issues questions...2003-2019

[McG]

The only major heartache i have with the changes that are being discussed is not filling out the potential section for non-Immediate PERs.  In my occupations (CELE) Capt - Maj promotions, and in the ATIS Tech trade promotions anywhere up to MWO, regularly happen with a mix of high Ready and Immediate PERs.  You can write an individual that is showing potential to be competitive for promotion in say 2-3 year but is not ready to "immediately" assume the  next rank as a high Ready knowing he will still get looked 2-3 years from now and still be competitive.  Under the new system being discussed, I foresee a significant increase in PER inflation.  The default for anyone showing potential will become an Immediate PER and the scores will trend up to become broadly similar to the USAF system where even individuals with less than 1 year in rank are automatically near right lined because it is the only way to make them competitive against their peers.

I share similar concerns.
I also wonder how this will affect selection processes that also use PERs as a reference for meriting (some year-long advance training, occupation transfers, component transfers, and potentially others).

I have sat in many a merit board and age has never been a factor. 

You will see it as an Adjt or OC.  I have seen a handful of CFR Capts sacraficed at the unit or formation level because "they will retire before reaching CO" in order to raise-up ROTP or young UTPNCM Capts.  I am also aware of age discussions during the unit and formation level meriting of MWOs and Majors.

The biggest disadvantage is not in merit boards but, as suggested by Old EO Tech, it is when guys are passed over for leadership and staff positions because they are too old to ever be a Div Sgt Major.  As a result, they do not recieve the higher experience points of having filled such positions.  I know of cases where age has been the deciding factor in sending majors to JCSP through residency or through DL.

In any case, it seems (having still only seen what is presented here) that these changes are a management solution to the CoC gaming the CFPAS as opposed to a leadership solution.  CFPAS works, but we do not follow CFPAS. 

However, oddly enough, JCSP does not incur obligatory service.  There are folks who have their DWD in the mess in Toronto just after they graduate.

Time to fix this.  Make it three years obligatory service after graduation.  We can then add this idea to our list of how the CF can get more milage out of its dollars.

 

[Drag]

bypass the principles of the merit list and promote out of order, age being one factor, or simply geographic location and lack of posting credits.  While merit boards are highly regulated and overseen, what decisions are made afterwards do not have that level of oversight, and if a member is not being very proactive and tech-netting a lot, he/she is unlikely to even realize they are getting screwed over :-/

Theoretically this is not supposed to happen, as per CFAO 11-6 Para 10:
10. The military requirement, referred to in subparagraph 4f(2), is the number of officers required at each rank level, in each MOC, to fill the Canadian Forces (CF) establishment. The military requirement also dictates that each establishment position be filled with personnel with the appropriate skill and knowledge. To satisfy the military requirement it may be necessary to promote members out of sequence to the annual merit list. When an out of sequence promotion occurs, the bypassed member will normally be promoted in that year. Approval of an out of sequence promotion that will result in the bypassed member not being promoted until the next calendar year is deemed to be an exceptional event which requires the personal approval of the CDS

Unless and individual becomes ineligible for promotion ( medical issues, PT test failure or conduct issues), he/she must be promoted if someone below them on the merit list was promoted unless approval was obtained from the CDS...  If an individual finds out that they were "skipped over: it would seem to me to be a very strong grounds for a grievance.

 

[Old EO Tech]

Theoretically this is not supposed to happen, as per CFAO 11-6 Para 10:
10. The military requirement, referred to in subparagraph 4f(2), is the number of officers required at each rank level, in each MOC, to fill the Canadian Forces (CF) establishment. The military requirement also dictates that each establishment position be filled with personnel with the appropriate skill and knowledge. To satisfy the military requirement it may be necessary to promote members out of sequence to the annual merit list. When an out of sequence promotion occurs, the bypassed member will normally be promoted in that year. Approval of an out of sequence promotion that will result in the bypassed member not being promoted until the next calendar year is deemed to be an exceptional event which requires the personal approval of the CDS

Unless and individual becomes ineligible for promotion ( medical issues, PT test failure or conduct issues), he/she must be promoted if someone below them on the merit list was promoted unless approval was obtained from the CDS...  If an individual finds out that they were "skipped over: it would seem to me to be a very strong grounds for a grievance.

I agree it would be a good grounds for a grievance....if you found out...

But there are also other shady ways around this reg.  In the RCEME Corp all MWO feed into just one global pool for CWO, however we are not merited on the same list, all four trades have separate lists.  When I asked why we do this the answer was to the effect of, not all CWO jobs are universal some are specific to a specific trade and we need to put the best people in each position.  And while it is true for the Assistant Occupational Advisers and a few LCMM spots, 95% of CWO jobs can be filled by any trade.  But this system does allow the CM/Corps to pick from 4 lists for the "right person" for a job without breaking the CFAO you quoted.

 

[Franko]

I agree it would be a good grounds for a grievance....if you found out...

Pretty easy to find out. It's done all the time by talking with others in your peer group and finding out where they placed. When someone gets promoted before you do, there's your cue and the clock starts ticking.

From there, filing a grievance is just a step away.

 

[armyvern]

Theoretically this is not supposed to happen, as per CFAO 11-6 Para 10:
10. The military requirement, referred to in subparagraph 4f(2), is the number of officers required at each rank level, in each MOC, to fill the Canadian Forces (CF) establishment. The military requirement also dictates that each establishment position be filled with personnel with the appropriate skill and knowledge. To satisfy the military requirement it may be necessary to promote members out of sequence to the annual merit list. When an out of sequence promotion occurs, the bypassed member will normally be promoted in that year. Approval of an out of sequence promotion that will result in the bypassed member not being promoted until the next calendar year is deemed to be an exceptional event which requires the personal approval of the CDS

Unless and individual becomes ineligible for promotion ( medical issues, PT test failure or conduct issues), he/she must be promoted if someone below them on the merit list was promoted unless approval was obtained from the CDS...  If an individual finds out that they were "skipped over: it would seem to me to be a very strong grounds for a grievance.

I have such a case occurring right now.  'Tis interesting times.

 

[armyvern]

...

But there are also other shady ways around this reg.  In the RCEME Corp all MWO feed into just one global pool for CWO, however we are not merited on the same list, all four trades have separate lists.  When I asked why we do this the answer was to the effect of, not all CWO jobs are universal some are specific to a specific trade and we need to put the best people in each position.  And while it is true for the Assistant Occupational Advisers and a few LCMM spots, 95% of CWO jobs can be filled by any trade.  But this system does allow the CM/Corps to pick from 4 lists for the "right person" for a job without breaking the CFAO you quoted.

'Tis normal and allowable in such cases.  Sup techs experience exactly such ... when a rigger qual'd is required for posn X, then the highest rigger on the merit list receives the promotion, out of sequence & possibly ahead of peers, and is placed into the job.  There are many specialities and pre-reqs required for many posns in the CF, and the next in line for promotion on whatever merit list that meets the pre-reqs and posn requirements should get that job & promotion.

Edit to add:  Oh, and it is very easy to find out if you've been bypassed these days as opposed to when you served.  The merit list numbers are published onto the troops' EMAA account by careers so that they can see what number they are and whether they are promoted or not.  Then, the careers website tracks how many promotions there were for the FY.  When you are listed on EMAA as number T and they've promoted up to number Z ... and you were not one of them and you didn't get by passed due to any of the items mentioned in the previously-quoted QR&O - guess what?

 

[Ostrozac]

You're right, it is allowed. If there are 6 LCol promotions coming in the army, but one of the job openings is Commandant of the Advanced Warfare Centre, and the top Major on the list with a parachute course is meritted as number 7, then Major number 7 will likely get the job, and Major number 6 will likely stay a Major.

But by a strict reading of the CFAO this decision has to be blessed by the CDS.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

You're right, it is allowed. If there are 6 LCol promotions coming in the army, but one of the job openings is Commandant of the Advanced Warfare Centre, and the top Major on the list with a parachute course is meritted as number 7, then Major number 7 will likely get the job, and Major number 6 will likely stay a Major.

But by a strict reading of the CFAO this decision has to be blessed by the CDS.

Ummmm.......no.  Not how it works at all.  Promotion and command are on two very different streams.

For command jobs in the Army, the various Regiments, Branches and Corps submit nominations on their Short Term Succession Plan.  Those nominations are reviewed and, in essence, voted on by Army Succession Board (ASB), which is comprised of the members of Army Council and select Regimental / Branch reps, and chaired by Deputy Commander Canadian Army (DCCA).  The candidates are narrowed down to a primary and an alternate for each command billet.  The Commander of the Army then reviews the results and selects each CO or RSM himself, usually (but not necessarily) iaw the recommendation from ASB.

Potential is also discussed and confirmed by ASB, in the guise of the Long Term Succession Plan.  Regiments, Branches and Corps submit their "tiering" to ASB, which confirms it.  The tiering indicates a senior officer or NCMs potential (Tier 3 means formation command / SM, Tier 2 essentially means Div Comd or higher).

Promotion on the other hand is governed by results on the national merit boards.

All of this can be found in the LFCO which is, IIRC, 11-79.

 

[Ostrozac]

Thanks for that, I was clearly misinformed as to how much gets done within the Army (as opposed to what happens at DGMC).

I'll have to give that LFCO a good read to educate myself a little better.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Thanks for that, I was clearly misinformed as to how much gets done within the Army (as opposed to what happens at DGMC).

I'll have to give that LFCO a good read to educate myself a little better.

De rien.

I have been involved in the CFPAS / Promotion / Tiering part of the Army for some time now.  I am convinced that, given the size of the "workforce" and the various competing demands including Regimental, Army and personal preferences, that are system is remarkably fair, that it generally promotes competence and recognizes performance AND potential, and that there aren't any viable alternatives to the system in place.

 

[Old EO Tech]

'Tis normal and allowable in such cases.  Sup techs experience exactly such ... when a rigger qual'd is required for posn X, then the highest rigger on the merit list receives the promotion, out of sequence & possibly ahead of peers, and is placed into the job.  There are many specialities and pre-reqs required for many posns in the CF, and the next in line for promotion on whatever merit list that meets the pre-reqs and posn requirements should get that job & promotion.

Edit to add:  Oh, and it is very easy to find out if you've been bypassed these days as opposed to when you served.  The merit list numbers are published onto the troops' EMAA account by careers so that they can see what number they are and whether they are promoted or not.  Then, the careers website tracks how many promotions there were for the FY.  When you are listed on EMAA as number T and they've promoted up to number Z ... and you were not one of them and you didn't get by passed due to any of the items mentioned in the previously-quoted QR&O - guess what?

I agree that when there is a hard requirement that bypassing people is fine.  But what I was getting at is that there is a large potential for misuse of this system, when there is not a hard requirement but when subjective opinions are used to pick a person from one list vice another.

And btw I am still serving, and yes EMAA and some tech-netting makes bypassing the system much harder but still not impossible.

 

[armyvern]

...
And btw I am still serving, and yes EMAA and some tech-netting makes bypassing the system much harder but still not impossible.

My apologies; you're just old. Like me.  ;D

 

[Franko]

EMMA's been down all week. Now is the time to bypass! LOL

 

[Nfld Sapper]

EMMA's been down all week. Now is the time to bypass! LOL

:cheers: :rofl:

Frustrating...

 

[Old EO Tech]

Ummmm.......no.  Not how it works at all.  Promotion and command are on two very different streams.

For command jobs in the Army, the various Regiments, Branches and Corps submit nominations on their Short Term Succession Plan.  Those nominations are reviewed and, in essence, voted on by Army Succession Board (ASB), which is comprised of the members of Army Council and select Regimental / Branch reps, and chaired by Deputy Commander Canadian Army (DCCA).  The candidates are narrowed down to a primary and an alternate for each command billet.  The Commander of the Army then reviews the results and selects each CO or RSM himself, usually (but not necessarily) iaw the recommendation from ASB.

Potential is also discussed and confirmed by ASB, in the guise of the Long Term Succession Plan.  Regiments, Branches and Corps submit their "tiering" to ASB, which confirms it.  The tiering indicates a senior officer or NCMs potential (Tier 3 means formation command / SM, Tier 2 essentially means Div Comd or higher).

Promotion on the other hand is governed by results on the national merit boards.

All of this can be found in the LFCO which is, IIRC, 11-79.

So just out of curiousity, since SP and promotions are separate administrative processes, what happens when MWO X is planned to be the next RSM but for some reason, performance..medical..etc, fails to be promoted.  Does the ASB have to sit again to make a new recommendation to the CCA?

 

[Journeyman]

Does the ASB have to sit again to make a new recommendation to the CCA?

Apparently not.

The candidates are narrowed down to a primary and an alternate for each command billet. 

 

[Old EO Tech]

My apologies; you're just old. Like me.  ;D

Yes I'm starting to feel old when my troops are younger than my kids

 

[PPCLI Guy]

So just out of curiousity, since SP and promotions are separate administrative processes, what happens when MWO X is planned to be the next RSM but for some reason, performance..medical..etc, fails to be promoted.  Does the ASB have to sit again to make a new recommendation to the CCA?

As Journeyman said, there are alternates.  Sometimes, neither primary or alternate gets promoted, which leaves the Regiment in question in a bit of a pickle.

In a completely unrelated note, the next CO of the Strats is from 12 RBC....

 

[AirDet]

I've been reading all the comments here from different bases and commands. All I can say is, this is going to be a really interesting PER season. I wouldn't want to serve on a merit board with all these changes.

As for age discrimination, I have no doubt it and other form of discrimination do happen. I don't believe it to be systemic though.

 

[Tibbson]

I've been reading all the comments here from different bases and commands. All I can say is, this is going to be a really interesting PER season. I wouldn't want to serve on a merit board with all these changes.

As for age discrimination, I have no doubt it and other form of discrimination do happen. I don't believe it to be systemic though.

I must admit, I haven`t seen any of these changes people are talking about.  My office already has PERs done after having help our local board and then a Canada wide teleconference to marry our local results in with the rest of our Unit PERs across Canada (we`ve got about 200 members in various locations).  If they change the system now we`re going to have to do it all over again.  Then again, why should that surprise anyone.  lol