Medical review - Delays

[Aper]

Hey all,

As you all know, the CAF is lacking personnel and a lot. I'm currently in the process of re-enrolling as I served Regular back in 2004-2008, and now re-enrolling in the Reserve. I applied in Montreal back in October, had my One-Day process in December but couldn't do the FORCE test due to a condition I had (Asthma), which is now delaying the process.

I'm still waiing for Ottawa to approve my application and medical results, but was told that even having all the forms in-hand at the recruitment center that they can't allow me to pass the FORCE test until Ottawa approves it (another useless delay). Why can't they have a medical section at the recruitment center to prevent those delays ? I mean, the CAF are in urgent need of recruits but with downtimes of several months, I can understand why most candidates loses motivation in the process with the neverending process, and I can't wrap it around my head how little the CAF can ajust the simple things to make the process faster for people like me who did already serve and is joining the Reserve.

I understand the possible lack of personel, but I can't believe they're so short of medical staff to allow recruits to be given the green light right off without waiting a month or two after Ottawa for such basic needs.

 

[bolukbas]

Why can't they have a medical section at the recruitment center to prevent those delays ?

Because your medical needs to be approved by a qualified Medical Officer. Your local reserve unit doesn't have one. Distributing the Medical Officers that are looking at the files to the local recruiting centres wouldn't speed up the process either. File going to and from Borden isn't the cause of the delay, the backlog of files is. Where the RMO is located doesn't address the issue at hand

 

[Aper]

Because your medical needs to be approved by a qualified Medical Officer. Your local reserve unit doesn't have one. Distributing the Medical Officers that are looking at the files to the local recruiting centres wouldn't speed up the process either. File going to and from Borden isn't the cause of the delay, the backlog of files is. Where the RMO is located doesn't address the issue at hand

I just wrote back to the medical section of our Brigade group, and they've just told me that I can process with the FORCE test without having to wait after Ottawa.

I understand what you're saying, it's just that nobody seems to have the same version of how to proceed and it gets confusing a lot. Knowing now that I could've proceed with booking my FORCE test, I wouldn't have lost time waiting for nothing. This is why you constantly need to challenge your CRFC and people working there in order to get things moving.

 

[sarahsmom]

Knowing now that I could've proceed with booking my FORCE test, I wouldn't have lost time waiting for nothing.

But you didn't lose any time. You are still waiting for Ottawa to approve your medical. You won't get sworn in any faster really, because until the day that you get that medical approval, IF it comes, you cannot be re-enrolled.

 

[Aper]

But you didn't lose any time. You are still waiting for Ottawa to approve your medical. You won't get sworn in any faster really, because until the day that you get that medical approval, IF it comes, you cannot be re-enrolled.

It's a fact and can't deny what you're saying.

After all, I did wait 1.5 years back in 2004 when I joined the Regular force. I'm maybe hoping that bureaucratic processes could be faster, 20 years later.

 

[da1root]

I just wrote back to the medical section of our Brigade group, and they've just told me that I can process with the FORCE test without having to wait after Ottawa.

I understand what you're saying, it's just that nobody seems to have the same version of how to proceed and it gets confusing a lot. Knowing now that I could've proceed with booking my FORCE test, I wouldn't have lost time waiting for nothing. This is why you constantly need to challenge your CRFC and people working there in order to get things moving.

I do want to weigh in on one topic here. The CFRC primary job is to process Regular Force files.

The Reserves are responsible for their own recruiting, I would NOT expect the CFRC to know the process for a Primary Reservist. If you're joining Army the Brigade Recruiters should have information on what steps your file happens in - if you're joining Navy or Medical each unit has their own recruiter that handles the files.

 

[Aper]

I do want to weigh in on one topic here. The CFRC primary job is to process Regular Force files.

The Reserves are responsible for their own recruiting, I would NOT expect the CFRC to know the process for a Primary Reservist. If you're joining Army the Brigade Recruiters should have information on what steps your file happens in - if you're joining Navy or Medical each unit has their own recruiter that handles the files.

In that case, why shouldn't we be processing directly with our future unit / regiment ? Regardless if you're joining Reg or PRes, the process should be the same; you need to pass the same tests, the same pre-requirements, to fulfill either a full time or part-time job and this, whatever the trade you're in.

The CAF works with one single application, and should be the same answers given to recruits instead of random answers like i've been given since the beginning.

Also, it's not normal to get an email reply to a simple question almost 2 weeks later from the CFRC. This is what's killing me as well.

 

[Winds]

In that case, why shouldn't we be processing directly with our future unit / regiment ? Regardless if you're joining Reg or PRes, the process should be the same; you need to pass the same tests, the same pre-requirements, to fulfill either a full time or part-time job and this, whatever the trade you're in.

The CAF works with one single application, and should be the same answers given to recruits instead of random answers like i've been given since the beginning.

Some PRes Brigades have individual recruiting staff at the units, in general it is much less efficient. If you compare staff sizes, centralized CFRCs process multiple times more applicants than reserve recruiters. There's simply much more efficiency in centralization.

Consider that since about 2018, the number of full-time recruiting staff about doubled with the amount of Class B recruiter positions created for the Army Reserve and NAVRES... do applications take half the time?

 

[Aper]

Some PRes Brigades have individual recruiting staff at the units, in general it is much less efficient. If you compare staff sizes, centralized CFRCs process multiple times more applicants than reserve recruiters. There's simply much more efficiency in centralization.

Consider that since about 2018, the number of full-time recruiting staff about doubled with the amount of Class B recruiter positions created for the Army Reserve and NAVRES... do applications take half the time?

Don't get me wrong; i'm currently being processed by my PRes brigade section and yes, they are centralized with the Reg section.

The staff might have doubled, but if the ''big machine'' known as Federal bureaucratic hasn't changed in the last 20-25 years, and you end up in the same bottleneck delays, this won't get more efficient to bring down the recruitment process.

 

[da1root]

In that case, why shouldn't we be processing directly with our future unit / regiment ? Regardless if you're joining Reg or PRes, the process should be the same; you need to pass the same tests, the same pre-requirements, to fulfill either a full time or part-time job and this, whatever the trade you're in.

The CAF works with one single application, and should be the same answers given to recruits instead of random answers like i've been given since the beginning.

Also, it's not normal to get an email reply to a simple question almost 2 weeks later from the CFRC. This is what's killing me as well.

Your first statement is actually not accurate. While the application portal is the same, the actual processes between the two are different.

The medical test to join the RegF and NAVRES are different than the Army Reserve or Health Services Reserves (the Army & HS Reserves do ERE's, this is not the case with the RegF & NAVRES).
In addition there are certain policies that allow individuals to not have to write the CFAT for the regular force, this is NOT the case with the PRes.
These are just two simple example of how the processes are NOT the same.

Again I state the CFRC's main objective is to enrol Regular Force members. For processing of files, some of the stick work is done at the CFRC; however it is not the job of a CFRC Staff Member to handle Reserve Recruiting (unless it's a Reserve Recruiter embedded in a CFRC, which is few and far between).

You stated that you're joing the Reserves, your primary point of contact should be your Unit Recruiter.

Consider that since about 2018, the number of full-time recruiting staff about doubled with the amount of Class B recruiter positions created for the Army Reserve and NAVRES... do applications take half the time?

I have to ask where are you getting this information? The number of positions of Recruiters have NOT double at NAVRES and Army Reserve Units. Many units are lucky to have 1 full time staff to deal with Recruiting; in some cases 1 recruiter is shared across several units. I've been in since 1999 and have worked in Recruiting (both Reg and Reserve) in different positions off and on starting in 2004 as a NAVRES Recruiting Clerk and I've never seen the number of Class B recruiter positions doubled.

Edit Note: In addition many Reserve Recruiters have to shut down their unit recruiting over to go teach - in all my years at CFRG I never once had to leave for the summer to go teach.

 

[Winds]

Your first statement is actually not accurate. While the application portal is the same, the actual processes between the two are different.

The medical test to join the RegF and NAVRES are different than the Army Reserve or Health Services Reserves (the Army & HS Reserves do ERE's, this is not the case with the RegF & NAVRES).
In addition there are certain policies that allow individuals to not have to write the CFAT for the regular force, this is NOT the case with the PRes.
These are just two simple example of how the processes are NOT the same.

Again I state the CFRC's main objective is to enrol Regular Force members. For processing of files, some of the stick work is done at the CFRC; however it is not the job of a CFRC Staff Member to handle Reserve Recruiting (unless it's a Reserve Recruiter embedded in a CFRC, which is few and far between).

You stated that you're joing the Reserves, your primary point of contact should be your Unit Recruiter.

I have to ask where are you getting this information? The number of positions of Recruiters have NOT double at NAVRES and Army Reserve Units. Many units are lucky to have 1 full time staff to deal with Recruiting; in some cases 1 recruiter is shared across several units. I've been in since 1999 and have worked in Recruiting (both Reg and Reserve) in different positions off and on starting in 2004 as a NAVRES Recruiting Clerk and I've never seen the number of Class B recruiter positions doubled.

Edit Note: In addition many Reserve Recruiters have to shut down their unit recruiting over to go teach - in all my years at CFRG I never once had to leave for the summer to go teach.

I worked in recruiting when the change happened and was briefed on all the changes. When NAVRES and Army Res applications were run through CFRCs there were very few Class B recruiting staff hired by the Army and Navy, and some of them worked within CRFC Dets.

For example, it was not uncommon for NAVRES units to previously have only a single Class B position for an RFA who would be seconded to the local CFRC Det in exchange for prioritized processing of a certain amount of NAVRES files per week. Then, when NAVRES took over their recruit processing, some units then added 3-4 full-time positions (Recruiters, MCCs, RFAs, PSOs) with no significant increase in processing timelines or capacity, due to several inefficiencies (ex. assigning an RFA to run CFAT sessions). Arguably, if you had added those same staff to the CFRC Det there could have been substantial improvements in processing capacity and timelines (with proper management).

My point was that decentralized recruiting is overall less efficient for several reasons, including the tendency for PRes units to employ recruiters in other roles. If an Army PRes unit has a single recruiter and they are tasked as an instructor during the summer, that unit temporarily has no recruiting staff. If the staff are brigaded and half are tasked away, you still have someone there... you kind of made my point for me. Consider how an Army reserve unit with a single recruiter position trains that member from scratch compared to a new staff member arriving at a large CFRC Det. Having a small cadre of competent and experienced staff around makes a huge difference when onboarding and training new members.

We had stats back in 2019 comparing processing metrics between Army reserve that had centralized their recruiting staff at the brigade level and those that had decentralized personnel to individual units, the later had already been proven to be an overall disaster. Most brigades never changed their approach, however, mostly because units "prefer" having their own recruiting staff.

It is also not uncommon for RegF and Class B staff working at a CFRC Det to attend career courses. Just because you personally haven't ever been assigned to teach doesn't mean that CFRC staff are never tasked away from their primary duties.

 

[da1root]

I worked in recruiting when the change happened and was briefed on all the changes. When NAVRES and Army Res applications were run through CFRCs there were very few Class B recruiting staff hired by the Army and Navy, and some of them worked within CRFC Dets.

For example, it was not uncommon for NAVRES units to previously have only a single Class B position for an RFA who would be seconded to the local CFRC Det in exchange for prioritized processing of a certain amount of NAVRES files per week. Then, when NAVRES took over their recruit processing, some units then added 3-4 full-time positions (Recruiters, MCCs, RFAs, PSOs) with no significant increase in processing timelines or capacity, due to several inefficiencies (ex. assigning an RFA to run CFAT sessions). Arguably, if you had added those same staff to the CFRC Det there could have been substantial improvements in processing capacity and timelines (with proper management).

My point was that decentralized recruiting is overall less efficient for several reasons, including the tendency for PRes units to employ recruiters in other roles. If an Army PRes unit has a single recruiter and they are tasked as an instructor during the summer, that unit temporarily has no recruiting staff. If the staff are brigaded and half are tasked away, you still have someone there... you kind of made my point for me. Consider how an Army reserve unit with a single recruiter position trains that member from scratch compared to a new staff member arriving at a large CFRC Det. Having a small cadre of competent and experienced staff around makes a huge difference when onboarding and training new members.

We had stats back in 2019 comparing processing metrics between Army reserve that had centralized their recruiting staff at the brigade level and those that had decentralized personnel to individual units, the later had already been proven to be an overall disaster. Most brigades never changed their approach, however, mostly because units "prefer" having their own recruiting staff.

It is also not uncommon for RegF and Class B staff working at a CFRC Det to attend career courses. Just because you personally haven't ever been assigned to teach doesn't mean that CFRC staff are never tasked away from their primary duties.

Just to clarify I didn't state that while at CFRG that I was never tasked for my own career courses, I said I was never tasked to teach (nor did I witness anyone tasked to tech). I don't count personal career in my statement as every position in the CAF Reg or PRes chances individuals getting tasked away from their primary job for career courses. I witnessed several individuals in the recruiting system be gone for career courses, none from my memory in the 8 years that I worked at CFRG did people leave to teach (although there may have been 1 or 2).

In regards to your statement of "Then, when NAVRES took over their recruit processing, some units then added 3-4 full-time positions (Recruiters, MCCs, RFAs, PSOs)" ... which ones? Because any of the NAVRES units that I still deal with don't have this many Class B staff dedicated to recruiting. I want to clarify (because in writing it's hard to determine) that this isn't meant to be combative, I'm just curious where the extra Class B's have landed in the system. I have been away from Recruiting since 2021 - now being put back in as a secondary duty as a Recruiting Officer for a PRes Fd Amb but from the first time I worked in Recruiting back in 2002 as a Recruiting Clerk for HMCS CARLETON (Class A), I've never experienced double the amount of staff straight across the board that were Class B.

I wasn't actually disagreeing with the inefficiencies that exist in decentralized recruiting (I actually have issues with decentralized training that I'm currently dealing with also for the same type of inefficiencies), but I was querying the whole double the staff thing; because I've yet to see double the staff across the board. At the unit I'm doing RecO duties for I have one Class B Sgt whos responsible for someone's file start to finish (because it's HS Reserves, they also do their own medical vice having it done at the CFRC, and within the very near future we'll be doing their own CFAT testing too which is currently being done by the brigade recruiters).

I've seen it time and time again, instead of an individual saying "I don't know, you'll need to speak with... " they try to make up the information themselves (most times thinking it's correct, so not in a malicious way). This causes frustration with the applicant because they're told multiple things by multiple people. It's actually exactly why the Health Services Specialist Recruiters were set up. RegF recruiters have over 100 occupations to recruit for, and the HS occupations are "unique" compared to most other occupations and only account for 9 Officer (not including all the sub-MOSIDs of Med Spec & Nurse) and 8 NCM occupations in total.

I'm already verging on (or surpassed) the TL/DR line so I'm going to end it with: All in all my point in this thread is to speak with the people in charge of your file and not to put unrealistic expectations on the CFRC staff.

 

[Winds]

Just to clarify I didn't state that while at CFRG that I was never tasked for my own career courses, I said I was never tasked to teach (nor did I witness anyone tasked to tech). I don't count personal career in my statement as every position in the CAF Reg or PRes chances individuals getting tasked away from their primary job for career courses. I witnessed several individuals in the recruiting system be gone for career courses, none from my memory in the 8 years that I worked at CFRG did people leave to teach (although there may have been 1 or 2).

In regards to your statement of "Then, when NAVRES took over their recruit processing, some units then added 3-4 full-time positions (Recruiters, MCCs, RFAs, PSOs)" ... which ones? Because any of the NAVRES units that I still deal with don't have this many Class B staff dedicated to recruiting. I want to clarify (because in writing it's hard to determine) that this isn't meant to be combative, I'm just curious where the extra Class B's have landed in the system. I have been away from Recruiting since 2021 - now being put back in as a secondary duty as a Recruiting Officer for a PRes Fd Amb but from the first time I worked in Recruiting back in 2002 as a Recruiting Clerk for HMCS CARLETON (Class A), I've never experienced double the amount of staff straight across the board that were Class B.

I wasn't actually disagreeing with the inefficiencies that exist in decentralized recruiting (I actually have issues with decentralized training that I'm currently dealing with also for the same type of inefficiencies), but I was querying the whole double the staff thing; because I've yet to see double the staff across the board. At the unit I'm doing RecO duties for I have one Class B Sgt whos responsible for someone's file start to finish (because it's HS Reserves, they also do their own medical vice having it done at the CFRC, and within the very near future we'll be doing their own CFAT testing too which is currently being done by the brigade recruiters).

I've seen it time and time again, instead of an individual saying "I don't know, you'll need to speak with... " they try to make up the information themselves (most times thinking it's correct, so not in a malicious way). This causes frustration with the applicant because they're told multiple things by multiple people. It's actually exactly why the Health Services Specialist Recruiters were set up. RegF recruiters have over 100 occupations to recruit for, and the HS occupations are "unique" compared to most other occupations and only account for 9 Officer (not including all the sub-MOSIDs of Med Spec & Nurse) and 8 NCM occupations in total.

I'm already verging on (or surpassed) the TL/DR line so I'm going to end it with: All in all my point in this thread is to speak with the people in charge of your file and not to put unrealistic expectations on the CFRC staff.

Did your current unit have a Class B position for a recruiter prior to 2018? Having one person do each step of the recruiting process is perhaps the least efficient way of processing a file and hardest way to train someone to competence.

When you were a Class A RFA at HMCS Carleton how many Class B positions did the unit have for recruiting staff, and how many do they have now (if you know)?

I've certainly seen NAVRES units have 3-4 full-time recruiting staff members, plus a PSO at the Div level (this is in a major urban centre), when they only had one full-time position prior to 2018. Consider that each NRD likely has its own Class B PSO. They may also employ said individuals in non-recruiting tasks, as you've also suggested.

 

[da1root]

Did your current unit have a Class B position for a recruiter prior to 2018? Having one person do each step of the recruiting process is perhaps the least efficient way of processing a file and hardest way to train someone to competence.

1 Class B pre 2018, still 1 Class B. And the unit I'm with has a "HQ" unit and 2 detachments that he does all the recruiting for. I agree on it being the least efficient way; but that's the way it's being run. I believe 11/12/13 Fd Amb out west has 1 recruiter for all 3 units (which also spreads across multiple provinces); or at least that's the indication I got at the Q4 Recruiting Meeting.

When you were a Class A RFA at HMCS Carleton how many Class B positions did the unit have for recruiting staff, and how many do they have now (if you know)?

I wasn't even considered a RFA by CFRC Ottawa back then; I just worked at unit level. We had myself as the Rec Clerk, one Class B recruiter who worked out of the CFRC 2 times a week and a Class A Recruiting Officer. I'm not sure how many they have now as I'm living closer to Hamilton - but last I spoke with HMCS STAR they only had 1 Class B Recruiter. There was talk of a 2nd position opening up on a regional level but they weren't "for" STAR specifically.

I've certainly seen NAVRES units have 3-4 full-time recruiting staff members, plus a PSO at the Div level (this is in a major urban centre), when they only had one full-time position prior to 2018. Consider that each NRD likely has its own Class B PSO. They may also employ said individuals in non-recruiting tasks, as you've also suggested.

At least they've included PSO's, that is the one task that we have to rely on the CFRC for. Which is fine for off the street enrolments, not so great for OT's that require a PSO Letter. I'm kind of jealous of whatever units have 3-4 full time staff. The unit I'm at (although has more positions) is currently filled with 1 RegF and maybe 4 Class B; and that's for Recruiting, Medical, Admin/Fin, Ops/Training...

 

[applicant23]

Hi,

I completed my medical in last December. Yet now waiting for approval from RMO (ottawa).

Asking as coming to my mind, does this delay means I am not qualified? Or if my parents (i.e father) has heart disease does it will effect my assessment? After my medical it is said that I am ok to go. As yet now didnt get approval, so many questions are coming into the mind.

 

[Aper]

Hi,

I completed my medical in last December. Yet now waiting for approval from RMO (ottawa).

Asking as coming to my mind, does this delay means I am not qualified? Or if my parents (i.e father) has heart disease does it will effect my assessment? After my medical it is said that I am ok to go. As yet now didnt get approval, so many questions are coming into the mind.

I think you should call back to your local CFRC to get updates on your application; they might require some additionnal info or form to be filled out.

I call them every 2-3 weeks for updates on my part, and I strongly suggest to other applicants to do the same.

 

[applicant23]

I think you should call back to your local CFRC to get updates on your application; they might require some additionnal info or form to be filled out.

I call them every 2-3 weeks for updates on my part, and I strongly suggest to other applicants to do the same.

Ya, finally i talked with my file manager and he send a follow-up email to RMO. Now i have got my medical approval.

 

[burdseyeflu]

Hey all,

As you all know, the CAF is lacking personnel and a lot. I'm currently in the process of re-enrolling as I served Regular back in 2004-2008, and now re-enrolling in the Reserve. I applied in Montreal back in October, had my One-Day process in December but couldn't do the FORCE test due to a condition I had (Asthma), which is now delaying the process.

I'm still waiing for Ottawa to approve my application and medical results, but was told that even having all the forms in-hand at the recruitment center that they can't allow me to pass the FORCE test until Ottawa approves it (another useless delay). Why can't they have a medical section at the recruitment center to prevent those delays ? I mean, the CAF are in urgent need of recruits but with downtimes of several months, I can understand why most candidates loses motivation in the process with the neverending process, and I can't wrap it around my head how little the CAF can ajust the simple things to make the process faster for people like me who did already serve and is joining the Reserve.

I understand the possible lack of personel, but I can't believe they're so short of medical staff to allow recruits to be given the green light right off without waiting a month or two after Ottawa for such basic needs.

I feel you. Started the process in October as well. The biggest delays were beyond my control. From my CFAT getting bumped up half a month later than I scheduled, to references taking their time, Christmas shutdowns+ new years, medical delays into late Feb, GP going on vacation, little word after submitting everything by midmarch...


I started training physically for this summer 2023 with multiple sources stating that 4.5-6 months would be the range for a citizen with a degree and no health complications. Part of the reason for applying was that my country "needed" people, and I myself need a path. If you need people, you don't make em wait at the door . Trust me, I GET hurry up and wait. I did the nursing thing since 2011. You better believe I'm gonna make sure I am on point if I get in. Not for my own sake either. Anyway, just my 2c.

 

[Aper]

I feel you. Started the process in October as well. The biggest delays were beyond my control. From my CFAT getting bumped up half a month later than I scheduled, to references taking their time, Christmas shutdowns+ new years, medical delays into late Feb, GP going on vacation, little word after submitting everything by midmarch...


I started training physically for this summer 2023 with multiple sources stating that 4.5-6 months would be the range for a citizen with a degree and no health complications. Part of the reason for applying was that my country "needed" people, and I myself need a path. If you need people, you don't make em wait at the door . Trust me, I GET hurry up and wait. I did the nursing thing since 2011. You better believe I'm gonna make sure I am on point if I get in. Not for my own sake either. Anyway, just my 2c.

I got enrolled last week. March 25th I wrote an email to the CFRC to get an update on my case, and the day after on the 26th I got an email back offering me a position in the trade I wanted with a scheduled swearing-in 2 days later on the 28th. I was really surprised to get that email and now i'm waiting to start my BMQ around the end of May this summer.

Trust the process, and keep poking the CFRC once every 2 weeks like I did to get updates Best of luck !

 

[burdseyeflu]

I will poke immediately