• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels (MCDVs)

I would think it may be quite a bit over a 1000t. I believe the MCDVS are close to 1000t to begin with and @Stoker was saying earlier in the thread that the concept drawings were showing a larger, faster and more capable ship all around.

It may turn on whether or not it is "light" or "loaded" displacements we are talking about. The nautical versions of kerb and gross weights. From Wiki:

The (MCDV) ships have a standard displacement of 772 tonnes (760 long tons) light and 979 t (964 long tons) fully loaded.

Conceivably the yards could produce a 1000 tonne "light" vessel that could displace more loaded.

From looking at this video and comparing the RHIB which I believe is about 7 m then the ship looks to me to be about 70 m.


Vard has a couple of 70 m range OPVs in the 7 series.


The 72m OPV harks back to Vard's very first design which was built by West Coast Manly Shipyards Limited, Vancouver, British Columbia in 1984


TypeFisheries patrol vessel
Tonnage
Displacement2,080 long tons (2,110 t) full load
Length72 m (236 ft 3 in)
Beam14.2 m (46 ft 7 in)
Draught4.5 m (14 ft 9 in)
 
regardless, the NSS is all about building an industry. There is already significant evidence of trickle-down benefits as more and more fabrication plants are getting involved. With the 3 yards up to capacity and with a guaranteed production capacity for the next 2 decades, bringing yards such as Heddle into the picture just makes sense even if the size exceeds the magic 1000t. What will get interesting to watch is where if anywhere the Koreans build their subshop
Of course, that’s the goal, as well as hopefully get the Navy the proper tools. It seems that Heddle and Seaspan are working together on proposals, so that may also be a loophole to get around the 1000t regulation.
 
Of course, that’s the goal, as well as hopefully get the Navy the proper tools. It seems that Heddle and Seaspan are working together on proposals, so that may also be a loophole to get around the 1000t regulation.
Nope, they aren't allowed to partner either into new work outside of NSS, that's in the umbrella agreement.

Heddle was part of the updated bid for the polar icebreaker under Seaspan, but that was for existing work already under the NC package that Seaspan won. If additional work was added to the NC package Seaspan can bring in additional partners, but effectively as subcontractors.

If it does go into NSS, I think it would likely be a replacement for the Polar class, unless the CCG gets another class added in instead, as there is a commitment for overall contract value, with some money owed to the shipyards if the work package is reduced without equivalent value added back in to cover the cost of the upgrades as well as the whole concept of the government committing to long term work, which is why the shipyards were interested in this to start with.

Not sure there has been any announcement on what work would replace the Polar at Seaspan, but timleine wise it's probably getting close as they will start running out of work on JSS in some of the shops soon and the design and production engineering all take a lot of time..
 
I was under the impression that Season is still building a polar icebreaker, just not necessarily in the original order of builds, and that Davie was also building one. That is because with the delays in implementation, by the time they both get built, not just St-Laurent, but Terry Fox as well will be due for retirement.

Did I miss something.
 
Nope, they aren't allowed to partner either into new work outside of NSS, that's in the umbrella agreement.

Heddle was part of the updated bid for the polar icebreaker under Seaspan, but that was for existing work already under the NC package that Seaspan won. If additional work was added to the NC package Seaspan can bring in additional partners, but effectively as subcontractors.

If it does go into NSS, I think it would likely be a replacement for the Polar class, unless the CCG gets another class added in instead, as there is a commitment for overall contract value, with some money owed to the shipyards if the work package is reduced without equivalent value added back in to cover the cost of the upgrades as well as the whole concept of the government committing to long term work, which is why the shipyards were interested in this to start with.

Not sure there has been any announcement on what work would replace the Polar at Seaspan, but timleine wise it's probably getting close as they will start running out of work on JSS in some of the shops soon and the design and production engineering all take a lot of time..
Ahh, ok. Thanks for the clarification. Essentially any new builds will have to get bid on and be subject to the NSS requirements. Does that preclude, say Seaspan, from subbing out work (modules etc) to Heddle (or anywhere else, for that matter)?
 
Ahh, ok. Thanks for the clarification. Essentially any new builds will have to get bid on and be subject to the NSS requirements. Does that preclude, say Seaspan, from subbing out work (modules etc) to Heddle (or anywhere else, for that matter)?
Caveat up front, all of this is open source that has been in news releases etc before, so just left out some of the bits that is commercial in confidence, like the actual dollar values of the upgrades.

It depends; the actual work packages had a value assigned to them, and because the companies didn't trust the GoC (rightly) not to cut the work, there are guarantees built in if they do cut the work that there is basically a payout based on the value of the shipyard upgrades they did to meet the NSS requirements. Because that was intended to come out of profits (and not funded by a forgivable provincial loan) the idea was that they don't spend several hundred million doing upgrades and then get left hanging in the wind.

Because Asterix wasn't under NSS, for that one Davie didn't have any of the 100% build in Canada, value proposition or other contract terms so it was much easier for them to offshore the superstructure. They can't do that under the NSS terms without providing a bunch of offsets, and it just doesn't really make sense with how easy it is to get the value just in having people working in Canada.

So it's basically a provision that the NSS yards get made whole with some additional cancellation penalties if the GoC does a flip flop, so same idea I guess as the EH101 and other big contracts.

Once they have the work in contract though, there isn't anything stopping them from partnering with other companies, with a fairly standard contractual setup for how that would work, but basically the main yard is always the prime contractor, and responsible to flow down the various contractual requirements (including the made in Canada reporting requirements, QC, IP etc) to the partners or primes. The original bids included some strategic partners that have changed over time, so all that is pretty normal for long term contracts.

The 1000 tonne exclusion was part of the NSS framework to make sure the smaller yards (Groupe Ocean, Heddle etc) didn't get cut out of other work, especially when you are talking about smaller ships where the smaller yards are more efficient at building as they have much less overhead. So part of joining the NSS includes the NSS yards agreeing that they are excluded from bidding on the work.

The non combat package in the bid included the two CCG classes of research boats, the JSS and the Polar class (which is frankly a crazy setup for short run ships and one offs, even for an experienced yard), so if any of those projects had been reduced or cut Canada agreed to either replace it with an equivalent value project or pay off some pro-rated portion for the upgrade costs.

I don't think there is anything though that would stop Canada from having an open competition though for an MCDV replacement project, and if it's over 1000 tonnes I think it would be fair game for the NSS yards as well, especially if they partnered with someone. The big thing there is whether the shipping costs would make sense to geographically separate the modules too much, but could be doing things like partnering on the design side/experience with GoC contracting or something.

No idea how that will roll out, as there will be a huge amount of politics involved. Based on the age of the MCDVs though, I hope they go outside of the NSS to the other yards so we don't wait 10+ years before they cut steel, but I think project staff from DND, PSPC and ISED will likely be the limiting factor anyway.

The NSS overhead is crazy though, and because there is so much reporting and government interface, probably adds hundreds of millions over the strategy life.
 
Caveat up front, all of this is open source that has been in news releases etc before, so just left out some of the bits that is commercial in confidence, like the actual dollar values of the upgrades.

It depends; the actual work packages had a value assigned to them, and because the companies didn't trust the GoC (rightly) not to cut the work, there are guarantees built in if they do cut the work that there is basically a payout based on the value of the shipyard upgrades they did to meet the NSS requirements. Because that was intended to come out of profits (and not funded by a forgivable provincial loan) the idea was that they don't spend several hundred million doing upgrades and then get left hanging in the wind.

Because Asterix wasn't under NSS, for that one Davie didn't have any of the 100% build in Canada, value proposition or other contract terms so it was much easier for them to offshore the superstructure. They can't do that under the NSS terms without providing a bunch of offsets, and it just doesn't really make sense with how easy it is to get the value just in having people working in Canada.

So it's basically a provision that the NSS yards get made whole with some additional cancellation penalties if the GoC does a flip flop, so same idea I guess as the EH101 and other big contracts.

Once they have the work in contract though, there isn't anything stopping them from partnering with other companies, with a fairly standard contractual setup for how that would work, but basically the main yard is always the prime contractor, and responsible to flow down the various contractual requirements (including the made in Canada reporting requirements, QC, IP etc) to the partners or primes. The original bids included some strategic partners that have changed over time, so all that is pretty normal for long term contracts.

The 1000 tonne exclusion was part of the NSS framework to make sure the smaller yards (Groupe Ocean, Heddle etc) didn't get cut out of other work, especially when you are talking about smaller ships where the smaller yards are more efficient at building as they have much less overhead. So part of joining the NSS includes the NSS yards agreeing that they are excluded from bidding on the work.

The non combat package in the bid included the two CCG classes of research boats, the JSS and the Polar class (which is frankly a crazy setup for short run ships and one offs, even for an experienced yard), so if any of those projects had been reduced or cut Canada agreed to either replace it with an equivalent value project or pay off some pro-rated portion for the upgrade costs.

I don't think there is anything though that would stop Canada from having an open competition though for an MCDV replacement project, and if it's over 1000 tonnes I think it would be fair game for the NSS yards as well, especially if they partnered with someone. The big thing there is whether the shipping costs would make sense to geographically separate the modules too much, but could be doing things like partnering on the design side/experience with GoC contracting or something.

No idea how that will roll out, as there will be a huge amount of politics involved. Based on the age of the MCDVs though, I hope they go outside of the NSS to the other yards so we don't wait 10+ years before they cut steel, but I think project staff from DND, PSPC and ISED will likely be the limiting factor anyway.

The NSS overhead is crazy though, and because there is so much reporting and government interface, probably adds hundreds of millions over the strategy life.

It could be kind of interesting to see what happened with a 1000 tonne plus or minus competition. By that I mean that the big yards get to see what they could offer at 1100 tonnes and the smaller ones see what they could offer at 900 tonnes. Then DND/PSPC gets to compare price, capabilities and deliveries.
 
It could be kind of interesting to see what happened with a 1000 tonne plus or minus competition. By that I mean that the big yards get to see what they could offer at 1100 tonnes and the smaller ones see what they could offer at 900 tonnes. Then DND/PSPC gets to compare price, capabilities and deliveries.
I can't see the smaller yards even putting in bids in that scenario though unless we covered their costs. Doing a GoC bid properly is really expensive, and could easily be $1M+ for the company, with a large LOE on our side as well.
 
I can't see the smaller yards even putting in bids in that scenario though unless we covered their costs. Doing a GoC bid properly is really expensive, and could easily be $1M+ for the company, with a large LOE on our side as well.

Your point is well taken. It might be worth the effort for the government to sponsor the effort though.

There does seem to be a useful array of international vendors who might be keen to partner with a Canadian yard though.

 
Caveat up front, all of this is open source that has been in news releases etc before, so just left out some of the bits that is commercial in confidence, like the actual dollar values of the upgrades.

It depends; the actual work packages had a value assigned to them, and because the companies didn't trust the GoC (rightly) not to cut the work, there are guarantees built in if they do cut the work that there is basically a payout based on the value of the shipyard upgrades they did to meet the NSS requirements. Because that was intended to come out of profits (and not funded by a forgivable provincial loan) the idea was that they don't spend several hundred million doing upgrades and then get left hanging in the wind.

Because Asterix wasn't under NSS, for that one Davie didn't have any of the 100% build in Canada, value proposition or other contract terms so it was much easier for them to offshore the superstructure. They can't do that under the NSS terms without providing a bunch of offsets, and it just doesn't really make sense with how easy it is to get the value just in having people working in Canada.

So it's basically a provision that the NSS yards get made whole with some additional cancellation penalties if the GoC does a flip flop, so same idea I guess as the EH101 and other big contracts.

Once they have the work in contract though, there isn't anything stopping them from partnering with other companies, with a fairly standard contractual setup for how that would work, but basically the main yard is always the prime contractor, and responsible to flow down the various contractual requirements (including the made in Canada reporting requirements, QC, IP etc) to the partners or primes. The original bids included some strategic partners that have changed over time, so all that is pretty normal for long term contracts.

The 1000 tonne exclusion was part of the NSS framework to make sure the smaller yards (Groupe Ocean, Heddle etc) didn't get cut out of other work, especially when you are talking about smaller ships where the smaller yards are more efficient at building as they have much less overhead. So part of joining the NSS includes the NSS yards agreeing that they are excluded from bidding on the work.

The non combat package in the bid included the two CCG classes of research boats, the JSS and the Polar class (which is frankly a crazy setup for short run ships and one offs, even for an experienced yard), so if any of those projects had been reduced or cut Canada agreed to either replace it with an equivalent value project or pay off some pro-rated portion for the upgrade costs.

I don't think there is anything though that would stop Canada from having an open competition though for an MCDV replacement project, and if it's over 1000 tonnes I think it would be fair game for the NSS yards as well, especially if they partnered with someone. The big thing there is whether the shipping costs would make sense to geographically separate the modules too much, but could be doing things like partnering on the design side/experience with GoC contracting or something.

No idea how that will roll out, as there will be a huge amount of politics involved. Based on the age of the MCDVs though, I hope they go outside of the NSS to the other yards so we don't wait 10+ years before they cut steel, but I think project staff from DND, PSPC and ISED will likely be the limiting factor anyway.

The NSS overhead is crazy though, and because there is so much reporting and government interface, probably adds hundreds of millions over the strategy life.
Seaspan is doing prep work on the Multi-purpose ships which will repalce the 1100's and some other ships, so I expect between 6-10 x 8,200 DWT vessels. Multi-Purpose Vessels - Seaspan
 
I was there ;)
Me too, although on a different ship! I wish I could have been a fly on the wall when the MPs brought the video in for the CO of the guy cooking up a storm, cleaning up after himself, then making the hamburger bun bed to sleep on (au naturel).

Last time I was in Norfolk years later talking to a random USN sailor on jetty sentry duty and he made a Hamburgler joke and we started laughing about it. This happened before the USN guy had even joined, so it's like a base folklore tail now.
 
It's just a paper design at the moment but OSK is proposing an "Arctic Frigate" design to replace the Danish Thetis-Class patrol ships.

An interesting concept if they can actually produce something with all the features they claim with a Polar Class 5 hull.

Length: 125 m

Beam: 18,0m

Max Draught: 6 m

Speed: 23+

Ice classed.

Propulsion: Diesel electric (PODs )

Crew: 60-125+ pending task

Helicopter: 1

Drone capacity: Air, surface, underwater

Boats and crafts: 2 RHIBs up to 9 meters; stern launched boat or RHIB up to 12 meters

Mision bay for modularized systems and stores eg:

ASW system (ACTAS), Mine laying module, Oilspill booms, Equipment for Arctic Standby Force, Snow mobiles, ATV tents ect.

Weapon systems: Main gun up to 76mm, 2(3) x overhead weapon stations, missile launchers (VLS and top side).

Main sensor: Air surveillance radar.

Tasks: ASW, Surface and air surveillance, maintenance of sovereignty, search and rescue, enhanced self defence.
You could imagine something like this could be a useful partial replacement for the Kingston-Class (along with the AOPS) in a mixed fleet:

6 x AOPS (capable of deploying XLUUV's)
6 x Arctic Frigates
12 x CSCs
6-12 x USV Arsenal ships (to accompany the CSC's)
2 x JSS
2 x Asterix-type oilers
 
It's just a paper design at the moment but OSK is proposing an "Arctic Frigate" design to replace the Danish Thetis-Class patrol ships.

An interesting concept if they can actually produce something with all the features they claim with a Polar Class 5 hull.


You could imagine something like this could be a useful partial replacement for the Kingston-Class (along with the AOPS) in a mixed fleet:

6 x AOPS (capable of deploying XLUUV's)
6 x Arctic Frigates
12 x CSCs
6-12 x USV Arsenal ships (to accompany the CSC's)
2 x JSS
2 x Asterix-type oilers
That design is quite interesting although I have some concerns I think would largely make it redundant/unsuited to the RCN. As a Kingston replacement, all of these armament upgrades and ice capability are redundant. The AOPS is already purpose designed for these Arctic roles, so this additional capability would be of questionable use. Kingston's are not combatants and all of this increased capability would be a driver of crew compliment, complexity and cost. Losing 3 CSC for 6 of these ships does not seem like an especially great deal for a future fleet composition.
 
That design is quite interesting although I have some concerns I think would largely make it redundant/unsuited to the RCN. As a Kingston replacement, all of these armament upgrades and ice capability are redundant. The AOPS is already purpose designed for these Arctic roles, so this additional capability would be of questionable use. Kingston's are not combatants and all of this increased capability would be a driver of crew compliment, complexity and cost. Losing 3 CSC for 6 of these ships does not seem like an especially great deal for a future fleet composition.
I am a big fan of replacing the Kingston's with a spilt fleet of fast patrol vessels similar to the River Class II and then dedicated route clearance vessels, slight bigger than the Kingston's, speed not being a critical element, but still capable of crossing oceans as required.
 
That design is quite interesting although I have some concerns I think would largely make it redundant/unsuited to the RCN. As a Kingston replacement, all of these armament upgrades and ice capability are redundant. The AOPS is already purpose designed for these Arctic roles, so this additional capability would be of questionable use. Kingston's are not combatants and all of this increased capability would be a driver of crew compliment, complexity and cost. Losing 3 CSC for 6 of these ships does not seem like an especially great deal for a future fleet composition.
My thoughts on the possible utility of a vessel like this was based on the following:

1) Personnel limitations. I don't see the RCN having the personnel available to crew 15 x CSC's, 6 x AOPS, 2 x JSS, ? x SSK's PLUS a 1-for-1 replacement for the Kingston-Class (likely with a crew size at least a bit larger than the MCDVs). Dropping 3 x CSC's, the SSK's and treating the 6 x AOPS + 6 x Small Combatants as a de-facto Kingston-Class replacement seems much more doable.

2) Arctic Capabilities. While the AOPS do provide us the ability to project force into our Arctic they (like the Kingston-Class) are not combatants. With the potential for competition with Russia and/or China for resources in our Arctic domain we will likely need something more heavily armed than the AOPS that is capable of operating there.

3) Combatant vs Non-Combatant. As noted the MCDV's are non-combatants as are the AOPS. With rising global tensions I think the fleet balance between combatants and non-combatants should likely change. The AOPS is able to perform most of the roles that the Kingston-Class performed although admittedly not as cheaply - but it's likely that any replacement like a River-Class Batch 2 will be more expensive to operate as well. A small combatant with a mission deck and containerized modules will be able to fulfill many of the Kingston's roles as well (but again not as cheaply).

Dropping 3 x CSC's and the SSK's for 6 x small combatants is of course a major trade-off for definitely less overall capability. I don't know what the "right" answer is for fleet mix but the impression I get is that right now we're planning for a fleet that we simply won't have the personnel available to crew.
 
Route clearance is going to be a important skillset, not as "cool" as having a frigate, but equally important. You can have ships in hot and cold layups. So you can scale up the fleet in times of conflict. Faster to train sailors than to build hulls.
 
Back
Top