Local Language Skills

[Joe Blow]

I wondered about this after seeing some clips from the Palm Beach Post.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/news/epaper/2005/03/06/m16a_videoscene_0305.html

The one entitled 'blood clot' shows some soldiers - to the point of booting one restrained fellow to the head - showing some frustration in dealing with the local population.

It seems to me that learning some simple Arabic could smooth situations like this over a bit ..and I presume make thing a bit easier generally.  However, I am an armchair soldier, so I would be very interested in hearing what some who have been abroad have to say.

Cheers.

 

[Michael Shannon]

A few phrases would be helpful but if the CF was serious about the long term capability to work in the region it would a) actively seek to recruit native speakers b) send serving soldiers on long term immersion courses c) pay tuitions for soldiers studying target languages, d) put Rosetta Stone on the DIN, e) make Arabic, Pashtu or Persian mandatory in every semester of ROTP for every "army" officer cadet, f) make fluency in a target language equivalent to a graduate degree or fluency in a second official language in officer promotions and g) post officers into the region long term to become area experts.

    Despite generals talking about hanging around Afghanistan for decades I don't think the CF has the will to "know the enemy". A few phrases might be nice. My experience is that most troops don't care beyond salutations and neither does the army so if you want to speak the lingo I suggest you start on your own at least year out from your tour. You probably won't be very good but in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.

 

[George Wallace]

A few phrases would be helpful but if the CF was serious about the long term capability to work in the region it would a) actively seek to recruit native speakers

The CF does have a few 'Native Speakers' and uses some from other agencies.   The problem lies in how many do we need, especially if the next Operation is in a different part of the world.   We can not recruit 'Native Speakers' in the quantities you allude to from every nationality in the world to be able to cover all possibilities.

b) send serving soldiers on long term immersion courses

An expensive and time consuming proposition.  

c) pay tuitions for soldiers studying target languages,

Again, an expensive and time consuming proposition.

d) put Rosetta Stone on the DIN,

You have lost me here, but I am wondering how much space there would be on the DIN to accommodate this proposal.

e) make Arabic, Pashtu or Persian mandatory in every semester of ROTP for every "army" officer cadet,

Perhaps we should be learning Cantonese or Spanish (NAFTA Nations are predominately Spanish) as they would most likely be the languages we will need here at home in the near future.

f) make fluency in a target language equivalent to a graduate degree or fluency in a second official language in officer promotions and

We have enough problems with them learning French or English as Second Languages.  

g) post officers into the region long term to become area experts.

      Despite generals talking about hanging around Afghanistan for decades I don't think the CF has the will to "know the enemy". A few phrases might be nice. My experience is that most troops don't care beyond salutations and neither does the army so if you want to speak the lingo I suggest you start on your own at least year out from your tour. You probably won't be very good but in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.

  I think that you will see that as time progresses, we will have many soldiers picking up tidbits of the language.   It happened in Germany, Bosnia, Cyprus and many of our other 'Tours' and 'Postings'.   Look at how many Americans picked up Vietnamese while in Vietnam.   It comes with time.

Usually there is a Country Fact Book published and handed out before Deployments.   In those books, there is usually a chapter on useful phrases that the soldiers will use 'In Country.'

 

[Big Foot]

While knowing some simple phrases, etc would be useful, how would it be good for difusing tense situations? You can say all the simple phrases you want to say, however its not going to change the fact that you will likely be unable to understand the reply. Simply put, IMHO, its best to just let the translators do what translators do and have the soldiers do their jobs. Its a nice idea, but in reality, how useful would it be? Our resources could be better spent elsewhere.

 

[DG-41]

Except - and as an Anglo who went to CMR, I know all about this - that there is major social lubricant in attempting to communicate with someone in their own language before resorting to a translator. It shows human interest and human contact, and demonstrates that you are not just some imperialist conquistador.

Being able to do simple greetings, exchange names and some typical small talk, then "we have reached the limits of my language ability and now sadly will have to switch to the translator" can greatly reduce the amount of suspicion and hostility in any encounter with the natives.

Not to mention that it is always an advantage to understand more than is expected. People will often say revealing things in your presence if they think you don't understand the language and/or the translator is unwilling to pass along the real text of the statement.

I agree that some sort of local language training should be part of the workups for a deployment.

DG

 

[paracowboy]

we are taught simple phrases before deployments. In addition,

Usually there is a Country Fact Book published and handed out before Deployments.   In those books, there is usually a chapter on useful phrases that the soldiers will use 'In Country.'

moreover, there is usually a smaller, easier to carry slip of paper with the most relevent phrases you put in a convenient pocket.
After a week in theatre, I was comfortable with the most basic greetings, pleases, thank you's, hey how ya doin's, along with appropriate gestures and body language.

It's all been addressed. Long ago.

 

[Joe Blow]

DG-41 -

I have had similar experience as an anglo in french Canada and have found the same to be true.  I suppose I was thinking along the same lines.  I agree, it is just polite - and "a major social lubricant" - to try and address someone in their own language.

Additionally, the nature of infantry work in places like Baghdad these days seems far more 'police-like' than ..say, rolling across the plains of Northern Europe. (That is, based on the television I see and so forth.  I'm sure the analogy only extends so far, however it appears that way.  Anyway, again, arm-chair soldier over here..)

Now, (for the most part) the police I have come across  (wrong place, wrong time ..I swear.  ;D )  Have always been very polite but very firm.  Very respectful, but very uncompromising.  Should we take a page from that book, or is the work just different enough that it doesn't matter that much?

EDIT:

After a week in theatre, I was comfortable with the most basic greetings, pleases, thank you's, hey how ya doin's, along with appropriate gestures and body language.

It's all been addressed. Long ago.

That's great (and reassuring).  ..There doesn't seems to be a whole lot of that going on in the clips above though.  Would you say that many young privates make the same effort?  ..Or do we just have better training in that regard than the Americans?

 

[paracowboy]

Now, (for the most part) the police I have come across...Have always been very polite but very firm.   Very respectful, but very uncompromising.   Should we take a page from that book, or is the work just different enough that it doesn't matter that much?

that is how we are taught to respond to most situations: friendly, firm, fair. Hugs and kisses, candy and blankets. Until the situation calls for something entirely different.

There doesn't seems to be a whole lot of that going on in the clips above though.

  what is the context of the clips taken? What has happened to those soldiers immediately, and for weeks, prior to that particular moment? How old are they? Have they lost friends overseas? How much experience do they have in theatres? In uniform? Who took the footage? What's their agenda?

Would you say that many young privates make the same effort?

some do, some don't. Some Sr NCOs do, some don't. Some Officers do, some don't. They're people. With all the foibles found in any cross-section.

Or do we just have better training in that regard than the Americans?

until very recently, the Yanks trained for War. Full-on, flat-out, kill 'em all, War. Their training reflected that: very aggressive, maximum firepower, flatten & occupy. The Hearts and Minds stuff was limited to specific types of units. Further, Individual Initiative at the lower rank levels was rare. Especially at the Pte level. They have always been a very young army. Get in at 18 - 20, do 4 years Active Duty, get out.
That has changed drastically in the past couple of years. They have come a long way, and have surpassed us in most respects. Hearts and Minds is now understood at the most Basic levels, Initiative is pushed down to the lowest level, likewise Responsibility. The entire U.S. military fully understands the Tactical Corporal concept.