Legion Poppy Copyright issues (bikers, NHL, etc.)

[ballz]

The NHL could get the pants sued off them if they had the RCL's trademark on their franchise's jerseys without permission. I am guessing that if they could do it for free, it would already have been done.

I would guess that the issue has been bargained for behind closed doors, and the Legion probably expects a high price from such a high-profile, profitable business. And I don't blame them for trying to raise some money by doing so. It would be interesting to know what kind of offers have been made / declined, etc, but we'll probably never know that stuff.

But this is all entirely speculation/guesswork on my part.

However, if the public starts putting pressure on the NHL, then it might force the RCL to accept a reasonable price if the headlines change from "Bettman says no to poppies on Nov 11" to "RCL turns down $X,000,000 offer from NHL for poppy rights."

 

[Edward Campbell]

Hockey teams, like Ottawa, regularly trot out heritage sweaters (I'm one of those who believes that The Hockey Sweater is the correct translation of "Le chandail de hockey" and that Roch Carrier gets the last word on the subject) so I guess there's no reason they, at least the Canadian teams, couldn't trot out "remembrance" sweaters for wear during the two weeks leading up to 11 Nov.  If the poppy is going to be a problem then design something suitable without the damned thing.

Maybe it's the Canadian teams, not Bettman and the league who should be targeted.

Paul Kitchen, left, hockey historian, and Jacob Barrette, designer, with the new heritage
sweater developed for the Ottawa Senators.
Photograph by: BRUNO SCHLUMBERGER, THE OTTAWA CITIZEN

 

[The Bread Guy]

.... If the Legion pattern poppy is going to be a problem then design something suitable without the damned thing ....

With the bit in yellow, it opens up the potential to use a significantly different enough poppy if that's what the teams want.

 

[ballz]

Hockey teams, like Ottawa, regularly trot out heritage sweaters (I'm one of those who believes that The Hockey Sweater is the correct translation of "Le chandail de hockey" and that Roch Carrier gets the last word on the subject) so I guess there's no reason they, at least the Canadian teams, couldn't trot out "remembrance" sweaters for wear during the two weeks leading up to 11 Nov.  If the poppy is going to be a problem then design something suitable without the damned thing.

Maybe it's the Canadian teams, not Bettman and the league who should be targeted.

Paul Kitchen, left, hockey historian, and Jacob Barrette, designer, with the new heritage
sweater developed for the Ottawa Senators.
Photograph by: BRUNO SCHLUMBERGER, THE OTTAWA CITIZEN

The business side of it is that those trademarks (heritage logos, etc) belong to the NHL, so all the team has to do is run it through the league, and the NHL gets "x" amount from every product sold (probably already a set percentage/royalty in the Franchisor/Franchisee contract).

Now, they could make a "remembrance" jersey but I'm not sure how they would design it. If they use a non-trademarked design of the poppy the optics would be that they didn't want to pay any money to the RCL and just want to profit off the occasion. If they don't use a poppy at all well... I just don't know how you could pull that off.

I am surprised that something hasn't been worked out anyway. I'm surprised I've never noticed it before.

 

[2010newbie]

I was at the "Remembrance Day" game (Nov 8th) in Toronto and they utilized the poppy symbol on the ice during the pre-game and there were RCL members at every gate distributing poppies. They also reminded people to purchase and wear poppies to show their support over the public address system. The Leafs are avid supporters of the CF and provide a lot of support to the Military Families Fund through the sales of their "camo" merchandise (25% of sales goes to the MFF) and through "Luke's Troops". If any team could get the NHL/RCL support you would think MLSE could.

What about instead of modifying the jersey, the players stick the RCL's poppy sticker (for people with leather jackets and for kids) on their helmets? You see these with other pink ribbon's and such and it wouldn't involve a jersey re-design. When I was distributing poppies this year a parent came up to me to try and get a bunch of the stickers for his son's hockey team to place on their helmets.

 

[OldSolduer]

I ahve seen NHL hockey players sporting pink laces, CFL players with pink gloves and pink ribbon stickers on their helmets etc. To the credit of the Als and Tic Cats - they had the poppy symbol on their helmets.

I can't see why the RCL would be so against this.

 

[bossi]

Awesome.  Focussing solely on the issue of wearing the poppy, I did speak to the manufacturer of the Kitchener Ranger sweaters (i.e. when I asked him if I could get some poppies for our Regimental team, he said he'd have to get permission from The Legion - I trust him to have told me the truth)

Having said all of the above (and agreeing with virtually all of everybody's contributions ...) it never dawned on me that the NHL might be refusing to let teams wear the poppy because of extortion ... er, um ... back room discussions with The Legion ... but, a propos to the Legion's refusal to let those biker veterans include a poppy in their crest ... it's all starting to make more sense ...

At least we've got almost an entire year to get all parties on the same page ...
(i.e. "Selection and Maintenance of The Aim" - get poppies on to NHL uniforms!)

 

[ballz]

I ahve seen NHL hockey players sporting pink laces, CFL players with pink gloves and pink ribbon stickers on their helmets etc. To the credit of the Als and Tic Cats - they had the poppy symbol on their helmets.

I can't see why the RCL would be so against this.

The colour "pink" isn't trademarked. I doubt the ribbons are trademarked either, but they might be. Either way, the big factor, I think, would be the amount of money the NHL has versus CFL and junior hockey.

It's not that the RCL is against it, but compared to the CFL and Tier I Junior hockey teams, the NHL is a hell of a lot more profitable (we're talking by a factor of 100 or more) and the RCL probably (rightfully) expects them to pay a lot more.

Also, I'm pretty sure the players wouldn't be allowed to put the poppy stickers on their helmets for the same reasons. Everything is different when it's businesses and not individuals. Don't think for a second that the RCL couldn't demand that any company that any of normal joe works for not allow their employees to wear poppy's while working / wearing that company's uniform or else be sued. I can't think of any company with a bad enough reputation that the RCL would do that, but that's beyond the point.

Trademarks are a big deal, and anybody that owns a trademark has to protect it or they lose it.

Awesome.  Focussing solely on the issue of wearing the poppy, I did speak to the manufacturer of the Kitchener Ranger sweaters (i.e. when I asked him if I could get some poppies for our Regimental team, he said he'd have to get permission from The Legion - I trust him to have told me the truth)

He was telling the truth.

 

[bossi]

... It's not that the RCL is against it, but compared to the CFL and Tier I Junior hockey teams, the NHL is a hell of a lot more profitable (we're talking by a factor of 100 or more) and the RCL probably (rightfully) expects them to pay a lot more. ...

So, in other words ... rather than obtain exposure coast to coast on Hockey Night in Canada, the Legion would rather cut off their nose to spite their face?  Yup - time for a regime change.

 

[ballz]

So, in other words ... rather than obtain exposure coast to coast on Hockey Night in Canada, the Legion would rather cut off their nose to spite their face?  Yup - time for a regime change.

The Legion doesn't need exposure coast to coast, everybody coast to coast already recognizes the poppy for what it is.

It needs money though...

You can't point the finger at anybody without knowing the details. If there were/are any offers on the table, you'd need to know what they were. Let's say the CFL pays $10,000 to use the poppy each year around Nov 11. The CFL has annual revenues at best of $150 million/year*. The NHL has annual revenues of 2.7 billion/year**. So by that precedent the NHL should be paying $180,000. What if they are only offering to pay the same as the CFL? If I were the Legion, looking out for the Legion's interests, I'd tell 'em to go pound sand.

*http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/09/04/fan-support-solid-revenues-mean-bright-future-for-cfl/
**http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2010/06/20100628/This-Weeks-News/NHL-Expects-Total-Revenue-To-Top-$27B.aspx

 

[bossi]

The Legion doesn't need exposure coast to coast, everybody coast to coast already recognizes the poppy for what it is.

It needs money though...

Fascinating perspective.  Personally, I wouldn't view the CFL or NHL as "using" the poppy.
Instead, I'd view it as honouring our fallen.
And, it the Legion is receiving zero dollars from the NHL at present ... it would seem fair to me that if the NHL teams wore commemorative sweaters, then auctioned them off like the Jr "A" teams and donated the proceeds to the Legion ... fair's fair.
The additional benefit to the Legion would be kids at home watching their NHL teams wearing the poppy (i.e. some kids look up to the NHL players, thus it would be positive reinforcement for the poppy)
Sorry to disagree with your well-presented financial analysis, however I thought it would be a "win-win" situation if the NHL teams wore the poppy (i.e. the poppy would be visible for the entire game, as opposed to only during the opening ceremony, and if the teams wore them for Remembrance Week it would mean multiple games - again, a huge step forward instead of the present zero sum - plus, the sweaters could then be auctioned off with the proceeds becoming "found money" for the Legion)

 

[ballz]

Fascinating perspective.  Personally, I wouldn't view the CFL or NHL as "using" the poppy.
Instead, I'd view it as honouring our fallen.
And, it the Legion is receiving zero dollars from the NHL at present ... it would seem fair to me that if the NHL teams wore commemorative sweaters, then auctioned them off like the Jr "A" teams and donated the proceeds to the Legion ... fair's fair.
The additional benefit to the Legion would be kids at home watching their NHL teams wearing the poppy (i.e. some kids look up to the NHL players, thus it would be positive reinforcement for the poppy)
Sorry to disagree with your well-presented financial analysis, however I thought it would be a "win-win" situation if the NHL teams wore the poppy (i.e. the poppy would be visible for the entire game, as opposed to only during the opening ceremony, and if the teams wore them for Remembrance Week it would mean multiple games - again, a huge step forward instead of the present zero sum - plus, the sweaters could then be auctioned off with the proceeds becoming "found money" for the Legion)

You're looking at it as "any revenue is good revenue" and while you're right, if the Legion sells itself short then there's a lot of potential revenue lost for no good reason.

Your example of auctioning off jerseys. 30 teams * ~25/players * ~150/jersey = 112,500. That is pennies for a $2.7 billion business. They would only be donating the jerseys (at a fraction of that 112,500), the fans would be donating the auction money.

Only squeezing a fraction of $112,500 from a $2.7 billion business to use your extremely recognizable trademark is terrible business. That's the same as me donating 83 cents, and I donated $5.00 from my miniscule Officer-Cadet salary. So if I were a member of a financially-struggling RCL, I'd be asking for a regime change if that was the deal that was bargained for on my behalf.

The additional benefit to the Legion would be kids at home watching their NHL teams wearing the poppy

Unfortunately warm fuzzy feelings can't be measured in dollars.




I'm going to take this time to reiterate that I would *love* to see a deal brokered between the RCL and the NHL that meant all the NHL players wore a poppy on their jerseys for the week leading up to Nov 11. I am just trying to bring some perspective on the possible complications before anybody goes blaming Bettman or the RCL.

EDIT: To add an analogy

 

[Fishbone Jones]

They should just sidestep the whole dollar\ copyright\ RCL issue and design their own poppy for use on their jerseys. Then it's not commercial, religious or political. Just their's.

Why get the RCL involved at all?

No one (signifigant) is going to stand up and rag on them for not using the commercial copyrighted poppy.

 

[Edward Campbell]

They should just sidestep the whole dollar\ copyright\ RCL issue and design their own poppy for use on their jerseys. Then it's not commercial, religious or political. Just their's.

Why get the RCL involved at all?

No one (signifigant) is going to stand up and rag on them for not using the commercial copyrighted poppy.

I agree - no need for the RCL's copyrighted poppy ... but I'm still not convinced that lobbying the NHL, per se, is the best route. Remembrance Day and the poppy are uniquely Canadian things; the US has "Veterans' Day" on 11 Nov - an event which has a quite different focus (their Memorial Day is in the spring); they do not wear the poppy in the USA; thus, poppies on NHL team sweaters would only apply to the Canadians teams. Should we not, therefore, write to them (Canucks, Flames, Oilers, Jets, Maple Leafs, Senators and Canadiens)  suggesting that they plan something next year, for the two weeks leading up to 11 Nov, to honour our war dead, something in addition to the things most teams already do to honour veterans?

 

[Pusser]

Here's something.  What if each individual player went out on his own and bought a Legion copyrighted poppy -(just like anyone else) and then chose to wear it on their jersey (remove the pin and stitch it on).  Could the Legion do anything about that?  How different would that be from every CF member buying and wearing one?  The CF certainly doesn't pay any royalties to the Legion.

 

[ballz]

Here's something.  What if each individual player went out on his own and bought a Legion copyrighted poppy -(just like anyone else) and then chose to wear it on their jersey (remove the pin and stitch it on).  Could the Legion do anything about that?  How different would that be from every CF member buying and wearing one?  The CF certainly doesn't pay any royalties to the Legion.

Yes, the Legion could do something about that. It is a registered trademark, and they reserve the legal right to stop anybody from wearing it if they believe it would "tarnish" the trademark. The Legion could stop YOU or anyone of us from wearing a poppy if they so choose. It is their property.

What if some alleged serial killer/rapist was currently on trial for his crimes and was wearing a poppy to and from court, and was being photographed and shown on national media wearing *your* trademark. You would probably want to take legal action against him to stop him from being associated with you and your organization. What if he was wearing a Toronto Maple Leafs hat on his way to court? The Leafs would probably have a lawyer send him a letter saying "you better stop wearing that hat to your court appearances, or we're going to take legal action," because quite frankly the Leafs wouldn't want their symbol, their name, associated an alleged serial killer/rapist.

The fact that an NHL player buys his own individual poppy becomes irrelevant when he puts it on his uniform (after all, that's what a hockey jersey is) next to another registered trademark that the Legion may or may not want to be associated with. I am sure you will see lots of video images of players arriving at the rink with a poppy on their blazer, and the RCL won't do anything/care. But the game changes completely when they wear it next to another registered trademark (that franchise's logo).

The Legion doesn't stop CF members from wearing a poppy, but it *could* if it decided it did not want it's trademark associated with CF members. The Legion doesn't ask for money from the CF for obvious reasons.


I suppose I've spouted off about trademarks enough that I should back up what I am saying. Everything I am saying is from memory of what I learned in my Business Law course in the chapter about trademarks, etc. I am now going to get it back from the person I lent it to last semester and skim through it, to make sure I'm not misremembering info.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Here's something.  What if each individual player went out on his own and bought a Legion copyrighted poppy -(just like anyone else) and then chose to wear it on their jersey (remove the pin and stitch it on).  Could the Legion do anything about that?  How different would that be from every CF member buying and wearing one?  The CF certainly doesn't pay any royalties to the Legion.

The other side of the coin would be:  would players be allowed, under the league's rules, to sew stuff onto their jerseys?  Here's what the rules I can find say:

.... All players of each team shall be dressed uniformly with approved design and color of their helmets, sweaters, short pants, stockings and skates ....

It sounds like someone in the league hierarchy would have to give the approval for a uniform design.  That's another reason why it might make sense to find team-wide solutions, rather than having individual players alter their kit (apparently) against the rules.

 

[ballz]

So I got my textbook ("The Law and Business Administration in Canada"12th Ed, by Smyth, Soberman, Easson, and McGill) and it seems the NHL has been into a legal battle over this kind of thing before.


"Section 19 of the (Trade-marks) Act gives the owner of a valid registered trademark the exclusive right to its use throughout Canada in respect of the goods and services for which it was registered. No unauthorized person may then sell, distribute, or advertise any goods or services in association with a confusing trademark or trade name (section 20), or otherwise use the mark in a manner that is likely to have the effect of depreciating the value of the goodwill attached to it (section 22)."

^^^See "advertise" above. That's exactly what the NHL would be doing if they had poppies on their jerseys. "Advertising" the poppy.

For this next bit, "passing off" is an offence under Tort law, meaning you can be sued for financial damages. But you don't have to have your trademark registered to sue someone for "passing off." However, what they are saying is that if you do have it registered, you don't need to meet the requirements of "passing off" to sue them.

"Actions for Infringement
Unauthorized use
One major advantage of registration is that unlike passing off, a registered trademark may be infringed by any unauthorized use of that mark or a confusingly similar mark by some other person"

Now, the NHL's past experience:

"In some recent cases, plaintiffs have argued that the definition of passing-off should be expanded to include situations where one person makes use of a well-known trade name or mark in order to obtain a benefit, even though the owner cannot show any damage and there is no likelihood of confusion in the minds of the public.12 To date, this view has had only limited success in the courts and the argument is more effective under the statutory causes of action."

12. In rare circumstances when the passing-off deliberately suggests an association with another's product, it may not be necessary to show damage. For Example, an advertising campaign that incorrectly associates a product with another's product may actually benefit that other product, but might still amount to passing-off: see National Hockey League v. Pepsi-Cola Canada Ltd. (1995(, 122 D.L.R (4th) 412.




Key words up there, "a confusingly similar mark." You are going to have a hard time creating an image of a poppy, no matter how you alter it, and putting it on jerseys on Nov 11, and it not being considered "confusingly similar" to the RCL's registered trademark.

 

[2010newbie]

Key words up there, "a confusingly similar mark." You are going to have a hard time creating an image of a poppy, no matter how you alter it, and putting it on jerseys on Nov 11, and it not being considered "confusingly similar" to the RCL's registered trademark.

Has there actually been a decision from RCL that states the NHL cannot use the Poppy during Remembrance Day? Has the NHL even asked? As opposed to continuing with assumptions, shouldn't efforts be directed towards petitioning the NHL or specific teams to adorn their helmets (sweaters, Jerseys, skates, whatever) with the poppy during the two weeks prior to Remembrance Day as opposed to coming up with excuses as to why the RCL "might" say no?

As I posted earlier, MLSE used the Poppy image, displayed on the ice, during the Remembrance Day game this year and I have yet to hear of any report stating the RCL is sending "cease and desist" letters to MLSE either.

Here's the video of the pre-game and you can see the RCL Poppy symbol being shown on the ice (yes, I know they show other poppies as well, but the one on the ice is clearly the RCL poppy):

http://video.mapleleafs.nhl.com/videocenter/console

You need to scroll through the videos at the bottom of the page to the video titled "Remembrance Day Tribute - 11/08/2011". The videos are chronological so it shouldn't be too difficult to find.

Here's a link to the CBC discussing the Poppy sticker which I think we should try and get on the players helmets (and also the one shown on the ice in the video above):

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2008/11/05/poppy-stickers.html

And a link to the Legion website showing the same poppy:

http://www.legion.ca/Poppy/campaign_e.cfm

Again, I think our interests would be better served by contacting the individual teams and requesting the sticker be placed on the helmets. I have a contact with MLSE that I have used before for some TMFRC fundraising, so I will contact him tomorrow.

Edited to Add:

Here's a link to an image of the "Pink Ribbon" helmets and the Leafs (as well as most other NHL teams) participate in each year:

http://media.fans.nhl.com/_Hockeys-Cancer-Fight-Hits-Close-to-Home/BLOG/393687/111820.html

 

[ballz]

Has there actually been a decision from RCL that states the NHL cannot use the Poppy during Remembrance Day? Has the NHL even asked? As opposed to continuing with assumptions, shouldn't efforts be directed towards petitioning the NHL or specific teams to adorn their helmets (sweaters, Jerseys, skates, whatever) with the poppy during the two weeks prior to Remembrance Day as opposed to coming up with excuses as to why the RCL "might" say no?

There's not much info on it. I'm not "continuing with assumptions" or "making excuses" for anybody, I am pointing out that it is not as simple as you seem to think it is (such as making a "different" poppy, or "well they put pink ribbons on there so they must be able to put poppies on there"). You're right, efforts should be directed towards lobbying, but not knowing the issues surrounding what you're lobbying for isn't going to make your lobbying efforts very effective or efficient.

As I posted earlier, MLSE used the Poppy image, displayed on the ice, during the Remembrance Day game this year and I have yet to hear of any report stating the RCL is sending "cease and desist" letters to MLSE either.

Apples and melons. The ACC does not belong to the NHL and whatever authorization / deal that was worked out between MLSE and the RCL has absolutely no bearing on any talks between MLSE and RCL. You didn't hear about any cease and desist letters, but you also didn't hear about what deal was struck or how much MLSE had to pay to the RCL to put the poppy there either, did you?

Again, I think our interests would be better served by contacting the individual teams and requesting the sticker be placed on the helmets. I have a contact with MLSE that I have used before for some TMFRC fundraising, so I will contact him tomorrow.

Individual teams are franchises, governed by the franchisor which is the NHL. They can't put a registered trademark on their helmet without the NHL's permission (as was already pointed out). The NHL can't give them permission to do it without permission from the RCL (as was already pointed out).

Here's a link to an image of the "Pink Ribbon" helmets and the Leafs (as well as most other NHL teams) participate in each year:

That has *nothing* to do with the RCL and it's trademarks. The pink ribbon, which according to Wikipedia (it has a citation but it's not working at the moment) in most places is considered public domain, although in Canada it's "a special form of trademark reserved for governmental and charitable organizations." Either way, what organization XYZ chooses to do with it's trademarks is completely irrelevant to what company ZYX chooses to do with it's trademarks.