Brad Sallows
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But you don't agree. You aren't writing anywhere near enough content excoriating Israel's foes for their conduct for anyone to take you seriously.
Hamas invaded Israel 2023
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abduly85
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Text book example of "whataboutism"
lenaitch
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Notwithstanding that UN resolutions are not law, the membership of many UN councils, particularly human rights, doesn't strengthen your arguments.
Brad Sallows
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"Whataboutism" is the cry of hypocrites seeking to protect their one-sided whinging. Nicely done; you just f*cked your credibility beyond all recovery. Principles are useless if not applied uniformly.Text book example of "whataboutism"
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Dude, read the title of this thread.Text book example of "whataboutism"
Whataboutism indeed!!!
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No, its not the like that. In this case, its more like involuntary manslaughter, where the jury found the accused not guilty, but nonetheless the judge agreed that the accused was behaving recklessly and needed to follow certain conditions to prevent the manslaughter from happening in the future.
There have been no documented "massacres" in Gaza. Do you even know what that word means? Have thousands of innocent Palestinians died? Yes. But unintentional civilian casualties does not make a massacre (or a genocide, while were at it).
Yea, it's really unfortunate that after the US finally stopped vetoing official calls for cease fire at the UN security council, and a UNSCR was finally able to pass a binding resolution demanding a cease fire, that Hamas rejected that demand for a ceasefire. Those silly gooses, I tell ya.
WinnipegFella
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First time poster in this thread which appears to be Chernobyl-toxic lately. I think we can all accept that October 7th was an atrocious act of depravity. We can also accept that Israel has not been showing anywhere near enough regard for the civilians of Gaza. Hamas should and must be liquidated but Israel seems to be going full Scipio Africanus and speed-running "Gaza delenda est", I mean they literally are salting the Earth by pumping seawater into the Gaza tunnels, which are often only a few metres from the groundwater aquifer - the only aquifer.
Also - I hope those Israeli officers end up locked up for the rest of their natural lives over the WCK drone strikes, it was so obviously a civilian convoy, placarded as such and they followed every Israeli procedure. However I will admit part of that hope is probably anger over the killing of one of my fellow citizens by negligent, trigger happy officers who probably have too much leash. There must be severe punishment and hope Canada calls for such especially with what seems to be severely lacking RoEs not in line with international norms. Certainly not Western aligned norms.
TLDR: both sides are fucked (with Hamas of course being more fucked), a pox on both their governmental houses.
Edit: clarity and a confusing line on my part.
Also - I hope those Israeli officers end up locked up for the rest of their natural lives over the WCK drone strikes, it was so obviously a civilian convoy, placarded as such and they followed every Israeli procedure. However I will admit part of that hope is probably anger over the killing of one of my fellow citizens by negligent, trigger happy officers who probably have too much leash. There must be severe punishment and hope Canada calls for such especially with what seems to be severely lacking RoEs not in line with international norms. Certainly not Western aligned norms.
TLDR: both sides are fucked (with Hamas of course being more fucked), a pox on both their governmental houses.
Edit: clarity and a confusing line on my part.
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No, we cannot both accept that, because it's patently false.
Having studied a bit about how urban combat was conduct in Iraq, I was shocked, shocked, to learn about just how vast and stringent the IDF's efforts are to prevent/reduce civilian casualties. I'm going to share from an open source, but having spoken with friends who are employed in the region and well informed, I can tell you that these examples are accurate.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) employed their practice of calling and texting ahead of an air strike as well as roof-knocking, where they drop small munitions on the roof of a building notifying everyone to evacuate the building before a strike.
The IDF has also air-dropped flyers to give civilians instructions on when and how to evacuate, including with safe corridors. Israel has dropped over 520,000 pamphlets, and broadcast over radio and through social media messages to provide instruction for civilians to leave combat areas.
Israel's use of real phone calls to civilians in combat areas (19,734), SMS texts (64,399) and pre-recorded calls (almost 6 million) to provide instructions on evacuations is also unprecedented.
The IDF also conducted daily four-hour pauses over multiple consecutive days of the war to allow civilians to leave active combat areas.
Another historical first in war measures to prevent civilian causalities was Israel's distribution of IDF military maps and urban warfare graphics to assist civilians with day to day evacuations and alerting them to where the IDF will be operating.
Here is the open source article: Israel Tried to Prevent Civilian Casualties More Than Any Nation in History
Brad Sallows
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Wow. You were there and know everything. What was it like?
WinnipegFella
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Dude, it's even in Israel's newspapers. They admit it was a major fuckup. Why are you whiteknighting this so hard? Of all the made up criticisms of the IDF, this is not one. If Hamas is to be held accountable in this matter, Israel must as well.
Close to 11 p.m., the pickup trucks began to drive away from the warehouse, after the aid had been unloaded. One vehicle drove north to Hangar B, where Har-Even said two to four gunmen were spotted entering the warehouse.
Just before the other three pickup trucks began driving toward the coast, the IDF probe found that one of the commanders mistakenly believed that a Hamas terrorist entered one of the escort cars. There was no evidence indicating the suspect was armed, and drone footage reviewed as part of the probe appeared to show he was holding a bag, not a gun.
The IDF said the troops did not identify the escort vehicles as being associated with WCK, and as they mistakenly believed at least one was carrying a Hamas gunman, a drone strike was carried out at around 11:09 p.m.
After the initial strike, people were identified running out of the targeted car into another. Additional airstrikes were then carried out in quick succession against the other two WCK escort pickup trucks, despite no information indicating gunmen were in them, which was a violation of IDF procedures. “Even though there was no information on gunmen in the second and third vehicles, they too were attacked, within minutes of each other, for no real reason,” the probe stated.
“The attack on the three vehicles was carried out in serious violation of the relevant orders and instructions,” the IDF said.
The WCK convoy had been coordinated with the IDF, although information on its route was not passed down from senior commanders to the officers on the ground, who ultimately called in the attack, the probe found.
The IDF said the findings of the investigation show that the incident “could have been prevented, and at the same time, those who approved the attack were convinced that they were attacking armed Hamas operatives and not WCK members.”
“The attack on the aid vehicles is a serious mistake, which stemmed from a serious failure, as a result of wrong identification, a mistake in decision-making, and an attack contrary to the orders and open-fire regulations,” the IDF said.
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The difference is, the IDF investigated, and fired the people who decided to go "cowboy"... How many Hamas leaders have been fired over the Oct 7th rapes/massacres?Dude, it's even in Israel's newspapers. They admit it was a major fuckup. Why are you whiteknighting this so hard? Of all the made up criticisms of the IDF, this is not one. If Hamas is to be held accountable in this matter, Israel must as well.
Close to 11 p.m., the pickup trucks began to drive away from the warehouse, after the aid had been unloaded. One vehicle drove north to Hangar B, where Har-Even said two to four gunmen were spotted entering the warehouse.
Just before the other three pickup trucks began driving toward the coast, the IDF probe found that one of the commanders mistakenly believed that a Hamas terrorist entered one of the escort cars. There was no evidence indicating the suspect was armed, and drone footage reviewed as part of the probe appeared to show he was holding a bag, not a gun.
The IDF said the troops did not identify the escort vehicles as being associated with WCK, and as they mistakenly believed at least one was carrying a Hamas gunman, a drone strike was carried out at around 11:09 p.m.
After the initial strike, people were identified running out of the targeted car into another. Additional airstrikes were then carried out in quick succession against the other two WCK escort pickup trucks, despite no information indicating gunmen were in them, which was a violation of IDF procedures. “Even though there was no information on gunmen in the second and third vehicles, they too were attacked, within minutes of each other, for no real reason,” the probe stated.
“The attack on the three vehicles was carried out in serious violation of the relevant orders and instructions,” the IDF said.
The WCK convoy had been coordinated with the IDF, although information on its route was not passed down from senior commanders to the officers on the ground, who ultimately called in the attack, the probe found.
The IDF said the findings of the investigation show that the incident “could have been prevented, and at the same time, those who approved the attack were convinced that they were attacking armed Hamas operatives and not WCK members.”
“The attack on the aid vehicles is a serious mistake, which stemmed from a serious failure, as a result of wrong identification, a mistake in decision-making, and an attack contrary to the orders and open-fire regulations,” the IDF said.
WinnipegFella
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Irrelevant. You're attempting a classic tu quoque. I fully condemn Hamas and stand by what I said, they should be liquidated. I wasn't defending Hamas, I was criticizing Israel. They are not the same thing. I applaud senior military leadership for removing them, I now hope civilian and judicial leadership ensure they see the inside of a cell for a long time. Any Canadian officer would be in prison over this. If Hamas or the PA had an air force, I'd hope they'd be imprisoned over a fuck up like this too.
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So before all of the facts come out, and before the accused get a chance to explain their actions, you want them in prison.
Also, lets be clear here, you're holding the IDF to a standard no other force is held to. Canada, America, the UK, France, etc., all have had civilian casualties from air strikes/artillery. When the people responsible were found to have made a mistake, but didn't intentionally set out to kill innocent people, their punishments were far less than what you are calling for.
abduly85
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Oh, how nice of them, they call/text you to tell you that they're bombing your house.
That doesn't even happen.
In December, the Israeli air force bombed my aunt's house in Gaza (Deir al Balah) without any warning killing my cousin's wife instantly and destroying their house...but that's fine, I'm sure there will be an investigation and israel will just issue an apology and move on... Wait that only happens when 7 western nationals get killed (who cares about them Palestinians, they deserve what happens to them).
And please, don't quote John Spencer. He's just a mouthpiece for Israeli propaganda and their favourite "embedded" journalist. Why hasn't Israel allowed a single foreign journalist for the past 6 months into Gaza (not the embedded kind) although many of them are willing to take the risk to report form there (hundreds even co-signed a letter a few months ago about it)? Doesn't take a rocket scientist to know the answer.
Everyone knows the IDF is just trigger happy and could care less about civilians. Here, even the former CIA Director Leon Panetta blasts them and compares them to how the US actually took collateral civilian casualty more seriously in Afghanistan: “You have to be able to verify, to take time…and I have to tell you that in the past, at least in my experience, the Israelis usually fire and then ask questions.”
abduly85
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I know, I got confused when I first read "Hamas invaded Israel 2023" and thought that Hamas has:Dude, read the title of this thread.
Whataboutism indeed!!!
- Ethnically cleansed Israel,
- Occupied and controlled the land, sea and air space of the area between the river and the sea,
- Built an illegal separation wall on internationally recognized Israeli land (illegal as per the ICJ in 2004),
- Built illegal settlements with over 750,000 extremist Muslim settlers on occupied Israeli land,
- Implemented discriminatory laws to systematically dispossess Israelis of their land and homes for the benefit of Muslims/Arabs
- Placed an illegal and inhumane blockade on Israelis for 2 decades (barring sometimes even chocolate, soap and wedding dresses!)
- Built an apartheid system,
- Refused the internationally recognized right of return for the expelled jewish population
I think I'll ask the moderator to revise the title of the thread to be more fact-based.
Jarnhamar
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To be fair one of them was a veteran.
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Egypt???
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I’m pretty sure Abdul’s rules are that you’re only allowed to gaslight Jews, not Arabs.
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Not even.
Egypt and Israel have had a lasting peace for almost 45 years, thanks to the Camp David Accords and the Multinational Force and Observers. Israel and Egypt have a cordial relationship that has been profitable for both countries and Egypt is extremely hesitant to upset that apple cart by having Hamas within their borders.
In fact, the EAF has been actively patroling the border areas near Rafah since well before the conflict between Israel and Gaza to make sure of it. It threw us in the MFO for a loop because the EAF and IDF were talking to one another, and neither were talking to us. We would send Treaty Violation Reports up to Rome, only to get the equivalent of "Yeah, we know. We talked about this on Tuesday..." responses.
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Remember the SEVEN Cdn citizens butchered by Hamas on 7 Oct.
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