Gays in U.S. military (merged)

[sigpig]

I was waiting for this story to show up here. And yes, the General is fully entitled to his opinion. I'm sure the many thousands of gays in the US military are thrilled to hear the Charmain of the JCS believes they are immoral. I'm sure they will be motivated to be better infanteers, medics, clerks, etc knowing that no matter how well or heroically they perform their jobs, it just doesn't matter. Just by being who they are, they are immoral.

 

[tomahawk6]

Sodomy is immoral and is a crime. General Pace is saying "openly gay" which is in line with dont ask dont tell.

 

[niner domestic]

TH6, with all due respect I can understand the immorality of breaking the law, and I understand that sodomy is illegal, but how can it be such a blanket statement when only 15 of the 50 states hold this act to be illegal? I think I could better sit with the argument that it is immoral and illegal if it also included the additional information that it is immoral and illegal in 15 out of the 50 states.  I could also sit better with the General's commentary if, he had also included that anyone practicing  sexual acts that have been deemed to be included in the laws of sodomy are also illegal (and my last read of the sodomy laws included that oral sex) and immoral. 

How does one reconcile the notion that in the states that repealed their sodomy laws, that these very same persons are not deemed to be immoral or committing acts of illegality?  In other words, one can only be by your statement, immoral and illegal in just 15 out of the 50 states.   

 

[sigpig]

Sodomy is immoral and is a crime.

Sodomy is not immoral. And the Supreme Court has decreed it is not a crime. It is just a matter of time before the military justice system has to change to reflect that fact.

General Pace is saying "openly gay" which is in line with dont ask dont tell.

"I believe homosexual acts between two individuals are immoral and that we should not condone immoral acts," Pace was quoted as saying in the newspaper interview. "I do not believe the United States is well served by a policy that says it is OK to be immoral in any way."

That doesn't sound like he just means "openly gay."

 

[Blackadder1916]

At a time when the current US administation and that nation's military have enough on their plate, perhaps General Pace should have followed the adage that I first heard from my grandmother.  If you don't have something good to say (about someone), don't say anything.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1598653,00.html  (more at link)

Pace Comments Renew Don't Ask, Don't Tell Debate

By Mark Thompson/Washington Tuesday, Mar. 13, 2007

Amid the turmoil of the Iraq war and the scandal at Walter Reed, the last thing the nation's top military officer should want to do is generate more controversy by renewing the debate over gays in the military. ....

Tuesday afternoon, Pace stuck to his guns but backed away a bit from the moraality anlgle. "I should have focused more on my support of the policy," he said in a statement, "and less on my personal moral views."

 

[geo]

"As an individual, I would not want (acceptance of gay behaviour) to be our policy, just like I would not want it to be our policy that if we were to find out that so-and-so was sleeping with somebody else's wife, that we would just look the other way, which we do not. We prosecute that kind of immoral behavior," he said.

The general is shooting a wide swath and is not picking a fight with gays or womanizing straights.

He is entitled to his views and he has said them.  He has also stated that he will maintain the policy of don's ask / don't tell......

Drop the subject.

 

[sigpig]

The general is shooting a wide swath and is not picking a fight with gays or womanizing straights.

He is entitled to his views and he has said them.  He has also stated that he will maintain the policy of don's ask / don't tell......

Drop the subject.

No. Why should I?

 

[geo]

Whups... I meant that HE should drop the subject.
You can do what the H you want

 

[sigpig]

Oh, ok. My bad 

 

[tomahawk6]

Many of you are responding to this issue out of support of gay rights. For me and most in the US military we have to go by the UCMJ which makes sodomy a crime, just as adultry is a crime.Homosexual conduct is prohibited period. As I stated previously until the UCMJ is amended we have to deal with the reality of the military justice system.

I dont favor amending the UCMJ.I dont want openly gay soldiers.Anyone that cannot abide by the rules that govern the military should not serve.We see companies that wont hire smokers and if an employee is found to smoke they are terminated.The employee's know the rules up front,if they dont like it they shouldnt apply to work at that company.Its pretty simple from my perspective. Des you state that sodomy isnt immoral, according to the Bible it is a sin.If you dont believe in God I guess nothing is immoral.If society allows dope smoking should the military allow it ? If society allows adultry should the military ? The military is a dangerous profession and units need to be cohesive and disciplined. I have had NCO's commit adultry and in each case they lost a stripe and pay. I have had to put soldiers out of the service for homosexual acts. I have sent soldiers to prison for assault and rape. Soldiers that were either caught smoking pot or failed a urine test received non-judicial punishment or were put out of the service. The bottom line is a military must have discipline. The law says you dont drink and drive, yet many do anyway.In the US military a DUI can end your career. Is it fair ? No, but anytime we decide to break the rules there are consequences.We all make choices.Do I wear my seat belt ? Do I ignore the safety briefing before undertaking potentially dangerous traiining ? My subordinate has a hot wife maybe she would like a fling ? In my job I might be able to profit personally . Should I ? Alot of moral landmines in our lives.

 

[geo]

+1 T6

 

[armyvern]

+1 T6.

Although the subject is indeed controversial, most posters here should also understand that you are subject to, and therefore obligated to adhere to the US UCMJ.

They should not be taking your 'professionally required' compliance with that to be reflective of, or indicative of, your personal ethics, beliefs or morals, even should they happen to be indicative of your own beliefs.

Just as some Canadian soldiers do not agree with every CFAO or QR&O...they still find themselves having to adhere to those regulations and orders, or face the disciplinary action that occurs otherwise.

 

[Sig_Des]

Excellent post T6. Just to clarify, I don't think I posted anywhere that sodomy isn't immoral.

I am in full agreement that biblically speaking sodomy is a sin....So is fornication. I'm not looking at this as a religious issue, though I am aware that it has a huge background in the debate, and respect that. Most of our values are religiously derived.

I think the source of the issue is wether the UCMJ should be amended to openly allow homosexuals to serve in your Armed Forces.

I would have to respectfully disagree with your argument that having homosexuals would go against discipline in the military. There are homosexuals serving in the military, yours and ours. We all know it. They're there. Some it's kind of obvious. Some you would have absolutely no clue. Do these cause disciplinary problems? Some would I'm sure, but not so much more than any other identifiable group.

Now the UCMJ clearly states that sodomy is a crime. But in the changing social values, is this not open to change? Why is it a crime? Is it because sodomy is immoral, a sin? Like I stated, so's fornication. Why isn't that a punishable offence?

I have no argument with you that you currently have a justice code. And that code must be adhered to for disciplinary purposes. But what I am asking is what is the reason for not amending that code?

 

[Yrys]

US military accept gay people as long as they don't have  homosexual conduct.
Isn't hard to have no sex life ? Heterosexuels wouldn't be able to adhere to no sex life.
I presume some  homosexuals may not realize how hard it's going to be...

T-6, I respect what you have to go by.

Des you state that sodomy isnt immoral, according to the Bible it is a sin.If you dont believe in God I guess nothing is immoral.If society allows dope smoking should the military allow it ? If society allows adultry should the military ?

Military can't allows what society  at large do. But it can't ignore what is going on there either.

It's not because some part of the Bibles say that sodomy is a sin that it is...
It's not because somebody is atheist that he has no morality.

Tim Gorski has some good points to that efect.

http://www.churchoffreethought.org/cgi-bin/contray/contray.cgi?ID=000011&GROUP=010&DATA=

 

[tomahawk6]

For the military this is an issue of good order and discipline. For the gay rights activists its just the first step in getting gay marriages/benefits approved and the result is to weaken the US military. Society like the military it represents must have moral values or else that society goes into the dustbin of history. The fall of every ancient empire I can think of had at its root a collapse of its moral values.

People can have sex off base in their apartments/homes.They cant don their uniform and march in a gay rights parade.We dont allow soldiers living in the barracks to have sex with anyone - male or female. We dont allow male soldiers to wear earrings on duty.Female soldiers can. There must be standards of dress and appearance in a military organization, as well as discipline. I have had officers and soldiers I suspected of being gay but as long as they did their job I didnt care what they did off duty as long as they adhered to policy.But I knew officers that were more aggressive in this policy like it was a crusade which I felt was unfair. But each commander has quite a bit of latitude.

 

[JasonSkald]

Des you state that sodomy isnt immoral, according to the Bible it is a sin.If you dont believe in God I guess nothing is immoral.

tomahawk6, do you honestly believe that atheists cannot have morals?  :

 

[tomahawk6]

Dont you have to believe in something to have morals ?

 

[Sig_Des]

Dont you have to believe in something to have morals ?

Individual conscience, systems of principles and judgments, and codes of behavior.

 

[Yrys]

You don't have to believe in God to have morals.

Atheists may believe in something else : order, doing the right thing, etc.

 

[Roy Harding]

Dont you have to believe in something to have morals ?

Absolutely - but "something" doesn't necessarily have to be God.