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Friendly Fire Incident - Sept

HItorMiss

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geo said:
Am sure that the pilots didn't decide on their own to initiate the ground attack...
Just goes to show how important good forward air control assets are required.

Geo normally you're a bang on poster but in this case you dead wrong about our FAC's in the sandbox!  The FAC involved in this incident IS not only good but EXCELLENT! he saved our lives countless times the day before and I'm 100% sure that team is still saving lives today.

I will not tolerate insinuations or statements that they are not EXCELLENT at their jobs on here or in person, anyone wanting post such can kindly STFU, that goes for the Pilot of that A-10 as well
 
HitorMiss said:
Geo normally you're a bang on poster but in this case you dead wrong about our FAC's in the sandbox!  The FAC involved in this incident IS not only good but EXCELLENT! he saved our lives countless times the day before and I'm 100% sure that team is still saving lives today.

I will not tolerate insinuations or statements that they are not EXCELLENT at their jobs on here or in person, anyone wanting post such can kindly STFU, that goes for the Pilot of that A-10 as well
Good post, HoM, and glad to see/hear that you're safe.  I agree (from afar) that our lads and the flyboys and all involved have been outstanding. 

Take care of yourself.


 
HitorMiss said:
Geo normally you're a bang on poster but in this case you dead wrong about our FAC's in the sandbox!  The FAC involved in this incident IS not only good but EXCELLENT! he saved our lives countless times the day before and I'm 100% sure that team is still saving lives today.

I will not tolerate insinuations or statements that they are not EXCELLENT at their jobs on here or in person, anyone wanting post such can kindly STFU, that goes for the Pilot of that A-10 as well
+1
Until the investigation of what happened is complete everything is pure speculation and should kept to a minimum.  We DO NOT know everything that happened and it is irresponsible to be posting any theories, especially in this thread.  Save it for the mess after a couple of beer.

Good to see you're ok HoM, take of yourself.
 
I want to say straight off from one American's view point that I am sorry that this incident occured. I am sorry for the loss of Pvt Graham and for the injuries sustained by so so many outstanding soldiers. I also want to say thank you for your understanding.

From the Globe and Mail.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060915.wxafghan16/BNStory/National

U.S. pilot targeted Canadians' trash fire

PAUL KORING

From Saturday's Globe and Mail

WASHINGTON — The U.S. Air Force A-10 Warthog pilot who strafed Canadian troops in Afghanistan, killing one and wounding dozens, mistakenly shot a blazing garbage fire just lit by the Canadians, after being told to target a fire at a suspected Taliban position.

The Warthog pilot apparently mistook the Canadian fire for the intended target, according to an officer familiar with early reports arising from the accident. The Canadian fire appeared almost directly in line with his course.

While some details of the sequence of events leading to the deadly "friendly fire" incident remain unknown, a general picture of the accident is emerging, according to senior military officers who have seen "after-action" reports. Those officers are not party to the official investigation and stress that their knowledge is limited.

In this scenario, ill-fated coincidence, ambiguities and failures to achieve 100-per-cent confidence in target identification before opening fire all appear to have contributed to a very short burst of fatal cannon fire.

The pilot realized the error almost immediately and released the trigger button, but the seven-barrel Gatling gun in the nose of the A-10 Warthog had already torn through the encampment of Canadian troops.

The pair of A-10s — tough, ugly jets designed especially for close air support — had been travelling just before 5:30 a.m. on Sept. 4, under the guidance of a forward air controller, who was directing them to a target believed to be just north of the Arghandab River. It was an area close to where four Canadians had been killed in fierce fighting the previous day.

The pilots were likely unaware of the Canadian encampment. Although forward ground controllers calling in air strikes close to "friendly" positions train — as do pilots of warplanes — to be extremely careful and precise, finding distinguishing marks that usefully identify a target can be challenging.

A fire would rarely be used as the sole distinguishing element. But a fire, especially if it seemed to be the only one in the area at the time of the strike, coupled with terrain features, could be extremely useful, especially in the drab sameness of rural Afghanistan.

The Canadians' position, on a hillside south of the dry Arghandab riverbed, was directly in front of the A-10 headed for the target, perhaps only a few thousands metres further on, according to one officer.

"The Canadians did nothing wrong," said another, suggesting that ambiguous information about the fire may have caused confusion in the cockpit.

Already, accounts from several wounded Canadians tend to corroborate the mistakenly targeted fire scenario that senior officers say seems to have played a significant role in the accident.

"The guys were told to clean up the area, get rid of garbage, any evidence of any messages or anything that needed to be burned. I guess the fire was lit [and then] the next thing I know I heard this cracking noise, I felt something in my foot and my leg and my shoulder, I heard one of the young lads yelling, 'I've been hit.' At first I thought somebody had thrown something in the garbage by accident, maybe a grenade," Sergeant Kym Cousineau told CBC's As It Happens.

"If his target was a fire, we had a fire on our site, too," he added, referring to the pilot.

Another of those wounded, Major Matthew Sprague, 39, said "the pilot knew he made a mistake right away," and stopped firing. "If the rounds had kept coming for another five or six seconds, I'd hate to think how many more of us would be" injured or killed, he told The Canadian Press from a military hospital in Germany.

A single second's worth of fire from the aircraft's gun is able to spew 50 thumb-sized, high-explosive bullets, each of which is powerful enough to rip through armour plate.

The pilot of the A-10, officially known as Thunderbolts but universally referred to as Warthogs, has been taken off flight duties while the formal investigation into the friendly fire proceeds.

Both regular and reserve pilots serve with the 81st Expeditionary Fighter Squadron, which has made several tours of duty in Afghanistan. Its current deployment ends this month when it is due to return to Spangdahlem Air Base in Germany.

Pentagon spokesman Lieutenant-Colonel Todd Vician said he does not know when the investigation will conclude. The probe is certain to examine what targeting information was given to the pilots by the forward air controllers who are supposed to have their eyes on the intended target as the warplanes make their bombing or strafing run. They will also examine why the pilot apparently failed to make a 100-per-cent identification before opening fire.

"It's explainable, if not excusable," said retired Canadian major-general Lewis MacKenzie, who is familiar with both the doctrine and the realities of confusion in battle. The stresses and split-second judgment inherent in combat, combined with the speed of jet aircraft, make close air support among the most demanding of tasks.

"Even an extremely well-trained and experienced pilot might make that mistake," Mr. MacKenzie said.

NATO's commander in southern Afghanistan, Canadian Brigadier-General David Fraser: "We do have procedures, we do have communications, we do have training and tactics and techniques and procedures to mitigate the risk, but we can't reduce those risks to zero."

Close air support remains vital to Canadian troops. With no warplanes or attack helicopters of their own in Afghanistan, the Canadian troops rely on U.S. attack aircraft.

"We're very dependant on these people," Sgt. Cousineau said. "These planes probably saved a lot of our lives the day prior by subjecting the insurgents [to] our overhead cover and fire; we rely on them 100 per cent."
 
tomahawk6  thank you for posting that it was an interesting read
 
karl28 said:
tomahawk6  thank you for posting that it was an interesting read
and shows how off base so much of the speculation has been.
 
There's really only two things readily available to civilians in their everyday lives that equate to the speed that this happened in.

1. Driving a car and having to swerve/slam on the brakes to avoid a collision

2. Gamers, playing action games where all they catch is a glimpse of the target before you react.

 
rmacqueen  I always try to keep an open mind especially to things that I don't have any experience with
 
karl28 said:
rmacqueen  I always try to keep an open mind especially to things that I don't have any experience with
I was actually referring to some of the earlier comments that led to the creation of this thread.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.
 
rmacqueen    Hey man no misunderstandings here I was in agreement with you just most people don't know who I am  so I was explaining how I view things . Cheers have a good one  I am off to work
 
http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=465f0147-d3b2-4c63-bc21-09bb93d896bc

I've removed the letter, but not the link. It was not removed because someone didn't agree with it, but because it was posted without explanation and a provocative bolded statement, implying agreement.

It is a letter to the editor, and as such has as much status here as any other news article, pro or con.
 
Being that is modified I will say

The pilot should be commended for his quick actions after the fact ( I wont go in to them). People may speculate all they want and rant rave all they want but unless they were in theater, in that company at the time of the incident they haven't they right to say a damn thing nor will they ever.
 
My apologies HitorMiss.  After Tomohawk6's news article was posted I thought it was ok to post other articles.

I've deleted the post.
 
T6's post containted information that was factual and relevant to the incident, yours was an opinion piece that was not needed.

I thank you for removing the post.

Right nothing to see here, Carry on the lot of you!
 
Thank you recceguy and HitorMiss.

Just to clarify something recceguy edited into my post.  I do not agree nor did I intend to imply agreement with the part of the of the letter I had bolded.  I'm sorry if that is how it looked.
 
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