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Enhanced CPP vs Personal Investing

>Front-line workers deserve their wages and benefits. Especially now that the cities they serve and protect are the explicit targets of terrorists.  I do not consider it a profit making business.

"Deserve".  Why?  Last time I checked, there are many Canadian occupations with higher fatality/injury rates than the "front-line workers", if by that you mean police and emergency services.
 
Brad Sallows said:
>Front-line workers deserve their wages and benefits. Especially now that the cities they serve and protect are the explicit targets of terrorists.  I do not consider it a profit making business.

"Deserve".  Why?  Last time I checked, there are many Canadian occupations with higher fatality/injury rates than the "front-line workers", if by that you mean police and emergency services.

Very few in this nation have people actually hunting them and wishing them harm on a daily basis. Police do deal with that. There are many criminal factions that would love to "cut their teeth" by injuring/murdering a cop. That hyper awareness is going to limit casualties by accident (note, accidents are always preventable... Being hunted, not always so.)

EDIT TO ADD: Paramedics deal with pain and suffering as a matter of course on a daily basis and firefighters are expected to rush into a burning building to rescue someone's cat because they smoked in bed... Some people are employed in fields where there is a very high degree of risk of personal harm.
 
Teeps74 said:
Very few in this nation have people actually hunting them and wishing them harm on a daily basis. Police do deal with that. There are many criminal factions that would love to "cut their teeth" by injuring/murdering a cop. That hyper awareness is going to limit casualties by accident (note, accidents are always preventable... Being hunted, not always so.)

EDIT TO ADD: Paramedics deal with pain and suffering as a matter of course on a daily basis and firefighters are expected to rush into a burning building to rescue someone's cat because they smoked in bed... Some people are employed in fields where there is a very high degree of risk of personal harm.

I think most citizens support their first responders for the reasons you said. They - and the military - are the only forces that protect us from losing everything we hold dear in an emergency.

The battle for supplemental pension benefits for police officers, firefighters and paramedics began at the federal level in 1999. It resulted in an increased pension accrual rate of 2.33 per cent, best-three years of contributory earnings, and an 80 Factor ( age + years of full-time credited service = 80 ). 
The Coverage Date cannot be earlier than July 1, 2008. That was too late to do me any good, but I support it for those now joining. The reason I support it is because the age of the average recruit in Toronto Fire Services has risen to 30.59  ( as of 2010 ). I am sure police and EMS are following a similar trend. That is a considerable increase in age from when I hired on ( 18-25 was typical ) and shows that early retirement improvements are necessary. Not only out of fairness to the worker, but also as a matter of public safety.

It is understood that jobs such as deep-sea fisherman, miner, forester etc. are also hazardous. However, they are not designated as Public Safety Occupations PSO's. Therefore, they are not eligible for a regulation to retire early, or a mechanism to make up for the resulting loss in retirement income under Canada’s Income Tax Act.





 
>Very few in this nation have people actually hunting them and wishing them harm on a daily basis.

So what?  Leave aside appeals to religion and immortal souls: what makes death or injury at the hands of a human worth more or less compensation than death or injury due to any other event in nature?  If risk is a compensating factor, should it not be the rationally and factually based risk (eg. rate per 100,000) which is the determination?

>Some people are employed in fields where there is a very high degree of risk of personal harm.

My point exactly.  But by what reasoning does the means by which the harm occurs matter?
 
People who choose to take up dangerous vocations can and do demand a risk premium; that is not at issue here.

The National Post article which pointed out that making pubilc sector wages equivalent to the corresponding private sector wages specifically excluded Police, since there is no real equivalent, and I believe several other jobs with no direct private sector equivalents were also excluded from the study. Even with that segment removed from the study, there is still $19 billion to be saved by paying clerks and middle managers the same wages and benefits as they would get in the private sector. See here for details.
 
Thucydides said:
there is still $19 billion to be saved by paying clerks and middle managers the same wages and benefits as they would get in the private sector.

A race to the bottom isn't good for anyone.
 
> "Deserve".  Why?  Last time I checked, there are many Canadian occupations with higher fatality/injury rates than
>  the "front-line workers", if by that you mean police and emergency services.

> If risk is a compensating factor, should it not be the rationally and factually based risk (eg. rate per 100,000) which is the determination?

Here is another list you can check for compensating factors.

Canada 2011:
"Top Jobs: The Professions We Trust Most: Emergency personnel like firefighters and paramedics topped this year's Most Trusted Jobs list":
1. Firefighters
2. Paramedics
3. Pharmacists
4. Nurses
5. Airline pilots
6. Doctors
7. Teachers
8. Armed Forces
9. Dentists
10. Veterinarians
11 . Police
12. Judges
13. Locksmiths
14. Accountants
15. Daycare workers
16. Public-transit drivers
17. Electricians
18. TV News Anchors
19. Psychologists/counsellors
20. Plumbers
http://www.readersdigest.ca/magazine/most-trusted-canadians-3rd-annual-trust-poll-results

Likewise in the U.S. and Australia.
"Which profession do you trust the most?":
http://www.dailymercury.com.au/story/2011/06/24/in-our-emergency-services-we-trust-jobs-profession/









 
WRT wages, the private sector bids for workers determined on how much the company can afford, and how much the worker is willing to accept. If there is a labour shortage, then wages can be bid up to unreasonable levels (such as in Alberta during boom periods; Tim Horton's workers were making wages many of us would envy), while if there is a labour surplus, wages get depressed as part of a natural cycle. Workers should be free to move from depressed markets to overheated ones, and the problem then corrects itself.

Paying the going market rate for government employees doing the same jobs as private sector employees is hardly a "race to the bottom" (unless all private sector workers are somehow currently living in poverty), and having $19 billion available in the economy would fund a tremendous amount of savings and investment across the entire breadth of the economy as @ 20 million people chose what to spend their share of the wealth on (rather than a handful of bureaucrats or a limited segment of the population). The $19 billion represents the resources to potentially create 380,000 full time private sector jobs as well.

This is the part of the argument which is willfully ignored. By removing large sums of money from the hands of the State, funds cannot be funneled into parts of the economy for whatever political purposes are deemed important by the political class (overpaying government workers to help ensure reelection is one classic distortion, as political ads paid for by Ontario's public sector unions are demonstrating in the runup to October's elections). This mitigates the appearance of bubbles, and moderates investment risk overall as money is not chasing perverse incentives created by politically motivated spending. Individual investors may choose unwisely, but this an individual issue, not a domino effect which can take out entire sectors of the economy.
 
So, plain and simple, if Timmy's is paying $20.00\ hr in Edmonton and $9.00\ hr in London, where do you peg the Fed wage at in comparison?
 
recceguy said:
So, plain and simple, if Timmy's is paying $20.00\ hr in Edmonton and $9.00\ hr in London, where do you peg the Fed wage at in comparison?


Why would the federal any government need anyone who serves coffee? There are probably dozens of job groups that fall into a similar category: support services that are, at least, highly desirable, maybe even necessary, but which need not and should not be provided by public servants. You want coffee? Phone the cafe; they'll bring it up. You want the office cleaned? Phone the contractor. You want the roads plowed? And so on ...
 
E.R. Campbell said:
Why would the federal any government need anyone who serves coffee? There are probably dozens of job groups that fall into a similar category: support services that are, at least, highly desirable, maybe even necessary, but which need not and should not be provided by public servants. You want coffee? Phone the cafe; they'll bring it up. You want the office cleaned? Phone the contractor. You want the roads plowed? And so on ...

Edward,

I'm simply going along with the examples. Let's not cloud the issue with semantics.

Try this.

A health care worker in Edmonton makes 50.00\ hr in Ontario $35. Where do the Feds peg the wage?

This is pretty simple. Either you let the market dictate, or we become socialist and everyone, but the politicians, lose their livelyhood.
 
The correct answer is the Feds do not peg the wage, as Edward says, these jobs should in no way be supplied by the State.

If there is no political will to divest jobs, then the ideal would simply base contracts on the prevailing market wage at the time the contract is negotiated. If there is an equivalent private sector job in Edmonton to the Health Care worker (a nebulous job category to begin with, who exactly are we talking about here? An X ray tech or a hospital cleaner?) then that is where the wage is set. The worker could choose to apply for a private sector job in the hope or expectation that the demand for the trade will rise and thus the wages if they are not satisfied with the public sector job offer.

Note that if after several years hordes of Ontario workers have migrated to Edmonton seeking $50/hr then the labour costs will come down when the new contract is to be negotiated. Of course the sky high rents and prices of Tim Horton's coffee will also have moderated, the market has a way of working these things out.

 
So I guess we come back to square one. If my examples don't suit your mold, give me a concrete, real life example, of a private\ public job, and how you would tell which one how much they can be paid in comparison to the other.
 
If an X-ray tech in a private clinic can ask for and receive a wage of $50/hr in that location, then the public servant X-ray tech can be paid the same wage in the same location. If the going rate is only $35/hr in that location, then that is all the government wage will be as well.
 
Thucydides said:
If an X-ray tech in a private clinic can ask for and receive a wage of $50/hr in that location, then the public servant X-ray tech can be paid the same wage in the same location. If the going rate is only $35/hr in that location, then that is all the government wage will be as well.

And you negotiate this how?
 
Thucydides said:
If an X-ray tech in a private clinic can ask for and receive a wage of $50/hr in that location, then the public servant X-ray tech can be paid the same wage in the same location. If the going rate is only $35/hr in that location, then that is all the government wage will be as well.


I'm sure many senior civil servants would love the raise you would have just handed them.....................
 
>Like I said. How's it going to be negotiated?

1. You go to a compensation consultancy, and ask what is, say, the 60th or 70th or 80th (or whatever) percentile of market-based compensation across various points of years of experience (within categories for similar/identical occupations, obviously).  They tell you; you set your pay and benefits scales to those numbers.  Negotiation is: you may work here, or seek an employer who pays in a higher percentile.
 
Sounds ridiculously expensive and labour intensive and, .....oh wait, now I understand, you must work in an HQ so of course you want MORE bureaucracy.
 
Compared to the expense and labour (time) lost in negotiation (and all its assorted practices), it is not.  How the engagement of outside consultants to provide a report every few years could help to expand a government bureaucratic fief, I can't see.
 
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