Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves

[tango22a]

Michael:

Maybe it could happen that 4RCR would re-badge to become  a Coy of  The Western Ontario Sottish Regiment. How would you feel then? Nah, never happen The Royal Canadian Regiment is TOO entrenched in the order of battle.

Cheers,

tango22a

 

[Rifleman62]

hamiltongs

Correct.

Thunder Bay was the loc. In 38 CBG's AOR there are stone frigates in the cities of Saskatoon. Regina, Winnipeg and Thunder Bay for a total of four.

 

[Michael OLeary]

tango22a,

You are defending the idea of never again changing a unit that has changed its badge and name before.  What is it about your personal period of service that was so significant that the unit should never undergo any further evolution?

 

[Nfld Sapper]

<stirs pot>

how about 31 CER

;D

 

[2 Cdo]

Folks the Regular Force went through this years ago with troops being rebadged against their will and they all survived. So will you.

 

[bLUE fOX]

What really is the concern here? each unit should have the same level of training in their specific element right? The First Hussars are armored, the Windsor regiment is armored, can it not be concluded the troops serving in both regiments should have similar levels of training and skill in their job? and should perhaps even be interchangeable between the two regiments? Isn't that the point of the reserves anyway? to produce a soldier who is interchangeable with his regular force counterpart? If this is the case then what does it matter what badge the soldier is operating under, so long as he is still doing his job? Or perhaps speaking out of my lane

Cheers

 

[Michael OLeary]

What really is the concern here? each unit should have the same level of training in their specific element right? The First Hussars are armored, the Windsor regiment is armored, can it not be concluded the troops serving in both regiments should have similar levels of training and skill in their job? and should perhaps even be interchangeable between the two regiments? Isn't that the point of the reserves anyway? to produce a soldier who is interchangeable with his regular force counterpart? If this is the case then what does it matter what badge the soldier is operating under, so long as he is still doing his job? Or perhaps speaking out of my lane

Cheers

Training standards aren't the issue being discussed here.  The issue is whether emotional attachment to regimental badges, names and traditions should take precedence over Army intentions to reorganize, amalgamate, or even disband units, in order to create a more efficient and effective force.

 

[tango22a]

Michael and NFLD Sapper:

MY Regiment was the first in Canada to be established as an Armoured Regiment from the ground up. We were also the first wearers of the Black Beret in the Canadian army. We have won many awards as the BEST PRes  Armoured Regiment in Ontario and have won The Worthington Trophy as the best PRes Armoured Regiment in Canada.

As for the 31st CER (The Elgin Regiment) I still don't agree with what was done to them, which is probably what will eventually happen to my old Regiment...31st ROWPU Regiment (The Windsor Water-Tenders)

tango22a

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Could be worst you could be an ONT R

;D

 

[George Wallace]

Michael and NFLD Sapper:

MY Regiment was the first in Canada to be established as an Armoured Regiment from the ground up. We were also the first wearers of the Black Beret in the Canadian army. We have won many awards as the BEST PRes  Armoured Regiment in Ontario and have won The Worthington Trophy as the best PRes Armoured Regiment in Canada.

As for the 31st CER (The Elgin Regiment) I still don't agree with what was done to them, which is probably what will eventually happen to my old Regiment...31st ROWPU Regiment (The Windsor Water-Tenders)

tango22a

I have to side with Michael here and say that you are way off base and just being an "Alarmist".  I sure hope you are not playing in the Stock Markets.

First off, the Elgins have changed role several times in their history, as has Regiments like the Lanark and Renfrew Scottish.  This is something that you should actually look into, the Regimental histories of all of Canada's Army Units, not just the PRes.  You will be quite shocked, if what you have posted so far is any indication of your knowledge of history.

As for the Windsor's becoming A Sqn or B Sqn of the 1H, then I think you are totally out to lunch on that as well.  Perhaps it will be A Sqn the SOR (Windsor Regiment) and B Sqn the SOR (1H) - (South Ontario Regiment), but highly unlikely that you would become a Sqn of the 1H or any other Regiment.  The SOR would only be a RHQ, made up of members wearing the hatbadge of the Windsor's and Hussars.  Probably with a rotation of COs from between the two "Sqns".  It may even not involve a new hatbadge.  It would be an "Administrative Formation" created for Peacetime, but dissolved at time of mobilization. 

Perhaps ?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

tango22a,

Jebus H, will you knock it off! I alluded earlier that yours is not the prevailing mindset around here. We had good times doing what we were doing and we'll have just as good a time, doing whatever they ask us to do in the future. We take the Queen's shilling and do what we're told, so we might as well enjoy ourselves. Heck, if I do learn ROWPUs I'll have a hell of a lot more deployment opportunities than I do now. This old dog can still learn new tricks and maybe it's time to quit sleeping in the dirt after all

 

[tango22a]

George:

I am trying not to be an alarmist, but I really hope you are right in your prediction.

Cheers,

tango22a

Recceguy: will take your advice....I'm THROUGH with this thread!!

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Don't worry. We'll still invite you to the Mess dinner. I'm sure the 76mm Club will still prevail.

 

[Kirkhill]

Michael and NFLD Sapper:

MY Regiment was the first in Canada to be established as an Armoured Regiment from the ground up. We were also the first wearers of the Black Beret in the Canadian army. We have won many awards as the BEST PRes  Armoured Regiment in Ontario and have won The Worthington Trophy as the best PRes Armoured Regiment in Canada.

As for the 31st CER (The Elgin Regiment) I still don't agree with what was done to them, which is probably what will eventually happen to my old Regiment...31st ROWPU Regiment (The Windsor Water-Tenders)

tango22a

And the Royal Scots were the oldest regiment in the British Army (1633).  Amalgamated with the Kings Own Scottish Borderers and redesignated, "Royal Scots and King's Own Scottish Borderers, 1st Battalion Royal Regiment of Scotland".


Change is.

 

[cavalryman]

Gents,

I'm probably placing my cojones on the Corps chopping block here, but truly - who gives a damn about the capbadges when the Royal Canadian Armoured Corps (Cavalry) is a joke outside of its three regular regiments.

Taking, oh... what the heck... LFQA as an example.... the Corps needs to take four fairly useless "Regiments" who can't field a full 8 car troop unless WWIV is at the door and form something called the "5e Régiment de Cavalerie" with four squadrons and and RHQ at a central location to which we will assign the codename of "Montreal".  For those who are wondering about nomenclature... LFQA's regular formation is 5 CMBG and every brigade or area level unit has a "5" as its first digit....

During Ex Noble Guerrier 09, the four cavalry "regiments" in LFQA could barely man a four troop squadron, with precious little experience or depth among the senior ranks.  From where I sit, in the frustrating situation of trying to train a credible force and failing, especially in light of the new "tasks" coming down the road, the last thing I really give a damn about are cap badges.

Tango 22a - with all due respect to your service, you are out of line, time and reality.  If I'm no where near worried about my regiment disappearing in a rationalisation that will produce a better army - and I'm a serving officer - I really don't give a damn about the sensitivities of retirees worrying about the WestBumFrack Regiment of Horse disappearing.  I have bigger worries, like how to fill a NBCR role with no training or gear.

Word from the coalface on a Friday night....

 

[Infanteer]

Thank goodness someone finally said that....

 

[geo]

Taking, oh... what the heck... LFQA as an example.... the Corps needs to take four fairly useless "Regiments" who can't field a full 8 car troop unless WWIV is at the door and form something called the "5e Régiment de Cavalerie" with four squadrons and and RHQ at a central location to which we will assign the codename of "Montreal".  For those who are wondering about nomenclature... LFQA's regular formation is 5 CMBG and every brigade or area level unit has a "5" as its first digit....

LFQA formations are 5 CMBG, 5 ASU, 35 CBG and 34CBG....

WRT reserve armoured RECCE units...
R de Hull,
RCH,
Sher H,
12 RBC(TR) (the old Three River Tank Reg't)

Yes - it certainly would make more sense to roll em into one
During Milcons, these 4 units always form up into one composite unit called:
Régiment Blindé du Secteur Québec (aka RBSQ)

They are used to train in this manner - not a great stretch of the imagination to rename it permanently IMHO

 

[PPCLI Guy]

And the Royal Scots were the oldest regiment in the British Army (1633).  Amalgamated with the Kings Own Scottish Borderers and redesignated, "Royal Scots and King's Own Scottish Borderers, 1st Battalion Royal Regiment of Scotland".


Change is.

And I was a Company Commander in a fabled regiment of very storied history in the British Army - and as of 3 years ago, it no longer exists. 

Times change - so do capbadges.

 

[McG]

The Army Reserve needs transformation. We have far too many Reserve units that cannot be sustained. Too many Reserve units that cannot sustain leadership at all levels, especially at the MWO/CWO and Maj/LCol ranks. Unit sucession is difficult. Too many units with less than 75 effective personnel that have a CO, DCO, Adjt, RSM, Trg O, Orderly Room, Unit QM, etc. How many bayonets does that leave? Do we need all this unit infrastructure that we cannot sustain? Our Reserve units have not fought as a unit for over 60 years, and never will ( mobilization is dead, therefore the theory of why we need so many units is dead).In our CBG we have the following in a city of less than 115,000: a Nav Res stone frigrate; an Army Res Inf Bn and Svc Bn; a Coms Res Sqn; and a CFMG Fd Amb.The local area cannot sustain this many units, nor produce the senior leadership. We need to tacticaly group units, and in some cases all the P Res units in location. Why not a LCol or Cdr commanding all five of these units, with one OR, and a  Navy and Army Trg O's.

Generally, I agree with what you are saying here except that I think you are proposing going too far.  With differing training goals and missions, I do not think the three environments can exist within a single effective unit.  Even within the land environment alone, I don't think everything in a single geographic location can be lumped together without regard for role.  You might get outstanding efficiency with clerks & administration but your operational effectiveness of the unit's component parts would be sacrificed, and you would likely see a similar reduction in the effectiveness of collective training & oversight of skills.

Given modern communication systems, span of control is less impaired by distance than by differences of unit/sub-unit roles.

 

[McG]

As for the 31st CER (The Elgin Regiment) I still don't agree with what was done to them ...

As someone who was an Elgin at that time, I think you've either misread the situation or failed to understand how much of that change was driven from within the regiment itself.

As I noted before I don't mind being under another regiment for admin...Done it many times at Milcon... I Just don't want to give up my identity ... Be it The Essex Regiment (Tank) or The Windsor Regiment (RCAC) ...

It would be an "Administrative Formation" created for Peacetime, but dissolved at time of mobilization.

To be clear, I am not suggesting administrative groupings or "under for admin."  I am suggesting existing sub-units (with their existing regimental identities) come under full command of new  (regimentless) battalion HQs.

I propose new battalion HQs primarily to avoid emotional resistance entrenched around: "Why is my regiment being subjugated under that regiment X?!  This is just the first step to making us all regiment X!  Our regimental pride doesn't allow us to be under another regiment!" At the same time, if there are reserve regiments which are large enough to sustain a battalion (with all its companies) then we could allow that battalion to addopt the regimental identity.  (Conceivably, this could be done by combining the two reserve battalions of R22eR or the battalions of R NFLD R).

As for the Windsor's becoming A Sqn or B Sqn of the 1H, then I think you are totally out to lunch on that as well.  Perhaps it will be A Sqn the SOR (Windsor Regiment) and B Sqn the SOR (1H) - (South Ontario Regiment), but highly unlikely that you would become a Sqn of the 1H or any other Regiment.

I would recommend against combining the existing sub-units into new named regiments while retaining regimental identities at the sub-unit level. 

It does not hurt us to retain identities at the sub-unit level (perhaps identities that span to more than one sub-unit within a battalion), and doing this would minimize opposition/friction against moving to a more sensible structure. 

However, for the future, if sub-units each had a unique identity & the unit itself had a named identity, then I could see competing identity issues of the two levels complicating force structure issues of the future even more than they already are today.  Imagine that we come to a day where the Army reserve is growing and the 'South Ontario Regiment' needs to become two battalions, well all of a sudden the two historical identities start clamoring for their own unit status while others show up allowing us to do whatever we want as long as we don't touch the identity of their 'South Ontario Regiment.'

Unless all the sub-units share the linage, then keep the word 'regiment' and the named identities at the sub-unit level within the reserves.