CS and batons for private security?

[The_Falcon]

new_sig_op,  I would very much like to know the company you are working for considering that carrying/using OC Spray is ILLEGAL by anyone other than PEACE OFFICERS (And even that depends on the agency particularly Special Constable services.).  Either you are blowing smoke up our asses, or your company and yourself are breaking the law.

http://www.mpss.jus.gov.on.ca/english/police_serv/PISG/guidelines/pisg_typical_conditions.html

Repellant Spray
A security guard may normally only carry a repellant spray when deployed with a guard dog. If any time a security guard is found in possession of a repellant spray of any kind and not engaged in canine duties, they and the employing agency may be subject to prosecution for possession of a prohibited weapon and may have their licence suspended or revoked. This includes oleoresin capsicum spray or foam, pepper spray of any kind, mace or bear/animal spray.

The regulations to the Criminal Code provides the following definition for a prohibited weapon as it pertains to a repellant spray:

Any device designed to be used for the purpose of injuring, immobilizing or otherwise incapacitating any person by the discharge therefrom of
(a) Tear gas, Mace or other gas: or
(b) Any liquid, spray, powder or other substance that is capable of injuring, immobilizing or otherwise incapacitating any person.'

Section 91 (2) of the Criminal Code lists the offence and penalty for possession of a prohibited weapon. Exemptions to the legislation are also identified in the Criminal Code. A peace officer is authorized by law to possess a repellent spray while in the line of duty. Security guards do not fall within this exemption.

 

[rz350]

new_sig_op,  I would very much like to know the company you are working for considering that carrying/using OC Spray is ILLEGAL by anyone other than PEACE OFFICERS (And even that depends on the agency particularly Special Constable services.).  Either you are blowing smoke up our asses, or your company and yourself are breaking the law.

http://www.mpss.jus.gov.on.ca/english/police_serv/PISG/guidelines/pisg_typical_conditions.html

Or, maybe, just maybe, he is a K9 unit? There are good nuber of K9 security companies.

 

[Kal]

Actaully that is a good point. And having looked into it further, it seems from the new PSIA act in Ontario, that Private security will be allowed to carry batons when it comes into effect (and it will make training mandatory to work as a guard, and require extra endorsements via training to carry a baton ect) But taht is a good point, against the insane crank heads, it probably wont help much anyways.

When is this due to pass and come into effect?

 

[rz350]

It passed a while ago, but its date of effect is a proclamation from the Lt.gov, so no one knows for sure, but rumors are at the end of this year or beginning of next, from what I hear from managers and such at my company.

 

[The_Falcon]

Or, maybe, just maybe, he is a K9 unit? There are good nuber of K9 security companies.

1) He never said anything about K9
2) It is not automatic that because a company uses K9 that they will automatically be permitted to carry OC Spray, the company I used to work for (Intelligarde) used K9 extensively but they were not permitted OC Spray.  It is a condition of the business licence.
3) If permitted you can ONLY carry the spary WHEN you have the K9 with you. No dog no spray.

 

[The_Falcon]

When is this due to pass and come into effect?

It passed a while ago, but its date of effect is a proclamation from the Lt.gov, so no one knows for sure, but rumors are at the end of this year or beginning of next, from what I hear from managers and such at my company.

It was passed and proclaimed in Decemember 2005, however the regulations will not be out till the begining of 2007.  Until the new regulations are in effect the old ones are still in use.

 

[rz350]

1) He never said anything about K9
2) It is not automatic that because a company uses K9 that they will automatically be permitted to carry OC Spray, the company I used to work for (Intelligarde) used K9 extensively but they were not permitted OC Spray.  It is a condition of the business licence.
3) If permitted you can ONLY carry the spary WHEN you have the K9 with you. No dog no spray.

But we dont know for sure, he does claim to be lic for OC. So if having K9 is required for that, then maybe he is k9? Maybe its bad of me (seriously, its a bit of a fault I suppose) but I like to assume people who work in security, policing, EMT, fire, members of the CF, ect are good folk who are usually doing the right thing.

and your sure its gonna be early 07 for the new regs? That's what I heard too, but I was treating it as conjecture, cause I've only heard it from my managers and such, who are not CSCS ministry officials. But since everyone is saying it, its probably true. *woohoo* I'm looking forward to them, hopefully it will bring the industry up a bit, and get alot of the useless wanks that I am forced to call co-workers at my company to get trained and smarten up, or get out.

edit-clarity and more info, and grammer

 

[The_Falcon]

But we dont know for sure, he does claim to be lic for OC. So if having K9 is required for that, then maybe he is k9? Maybe its bad of me (seriously, its a bit of a fault I suppose) but I like to assume people who work in security, policing, EMT, fire, members of the CF, ect are good folk who are usually doing the right thing.

and your sure its gonna be early 07 for the new regs? *woohoo* Io'm looking forward to them, hopfully it will bring the industry up a bit, and get alot of the useless wanks that I am forced to call co-workers at my company to get trained and smarten up, or get out.

No we don't know for sure until he decides to come back and clarify.  That said, I stand by what I said, I worked for a company that used K9, and I have seen many others in and around T.O. and not once have I ever seen anyone carrying spray.  As well never assume, especially in the security industry, there are quite a few companies out there that not only skirt the line WRT the current laws and regulations, but go completely over that line.  I know of one contract company were at least 1 guard is carrying an ASP Style Baton (I can send you the link via pm) in their promotional material.  Why does that matter, well contract security are ONLY LEGALLY allowed non-collapsable batons  (such as PR24s or straight style).

As for the second part about the regulations, that is what my supervisor at work informed me, as they are trying to figure out whether or not we will be exempted as we are inhouse working for the city of Toronto.

 

[rz350]

Inhouse isnt exempt anymore I dont think. Even one guy like a bouncer will need to comply with the new regs. Its a pain for the little guys, but its a good system that will make the industry as a whole more serious, professional, and bnetter able to do their jobs.

 

[Scratch_043]

Under the new PSIA, all security, in house, bouncers, store detectives, etc. have to be licensed. There are no exceptions. This means that Bars will lose most of their bouncers, because of the new requirement for clean background, Stores will lose their detectives, because they can't pay for all of the training, etc. This then opens up those places for the security companies who are licensed, and do have the qualifications.

 

[The_Falcon]

Inhouse isnt exempt anymore I dont think. Even one guy like a bouncer will need to comply with the new regs. Its a pain for the little guys, but its a good system that will make the industry as a whole more serious, professional, and bnetter able to do their jobs.

Under the new PSIA, all security, in house, bouncers, store detectives, etc. have to be licensed. There are no exceptions. This means that Bars will lose most of their bouncers, because of the new requirement for clean background, Stores will lose their detectives, because they can't pay for all of the training, etc. This then opens up those places for the security companies who are licensed, and do have the qualifications.

Yeah I realize that, both of you didn't read what I wrote, I am inhouse for the CITY,  meaning civic employee.  The Act even says it won't apply to certain people who are exempted by the regulations (which are still being written), we (the collective "we" really meaning my bosses) are trying to get us exempt status.  When I was working at the casino, OLGC in-house were already going to be exempted from this new act because they are already working for a government agency, because we had to have a AGCO gaming licence, and we were overseen by the OPP already.  So there will be execptions/exemptions made for certain groups, there always are.

 

[new_armoured_trooper]

Hello,

Sorry about the extreme delay in my response. My computer needed to be completely formatted and a great deal of difficulty in getting the wireless connection going again. ah the joy of technology. I do apologize as i have been advised by my company that we are no longer carrying OC spray, and that this was an error on our part. Baton is still issued kit for specific positions, though there is a great deal of licencing / certification involved as i mentioned earlier.

I do apologize for this mistake. My understanding is we are likely to be adding a K-9 component at some point, and will look into carrying the spray again at that point.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

I would hate like hell to see a bunch of batons get given out and lull some people into a false sense of security, only to engage in melee's that they should have disengaged from. 
Personally, I have used my baton twice for striking and spray once in the past eight years.  Both times the baton was useless and ended up being a pain in the ass once deployed and at hand.  The OC was also non-effective, since someone forgot to tell crack heads that it is supposed to be painful.  Most times that OC is deployed (in my experience), all it does is piss people off and run the risk of contaminating each other more than the bad guy.  OC would never be a viable option in a bar/concert situation.  Want to see your life go to the dump right quick when someones princess gets a shot of hot sauce from overspray and you get sued?  And if you get a bad judge, and they decide you were not in the lawful execution of your duties, you will be left swinging in the wind for civil liability.  Forget the "rather be judged by 12 than carried by six" macho crap.  Just get the hell out before it gets that bad. 
Keep it old school.  If you can't fight your way through the situation, then wait for back up, call the police and/or get the hell out of there.  Why would anyone be confronting multiple armed bad guys with weapons of opportunity?  Christ, I would be looking for an exit route, and I get to shoot people with weapons that come after me.  $15/hr cannot possibly be worth putting your health/life on the line.  I get paid to put my life on the line, and I am pretty stingy with that at best.  No way you should be going to the wall for some warehouse or ghetto project. 

 

[Nug]

I was in Toronto a few years ago on a course and remember seeing security guards in a mall(don't ask me witch one because I can't remember) carrying side handle battons,handcuffs and wearing some form of body armour. I'm from Winnipeg and at the time it was a big deal for guards hear to be carrying cuffs let alone any of the rest. My question is has something changed over the years in Ontario that would have made carrying them OK then but not now or is it a restriction against the type of batton?

 

[zipperhead_cop]

I was in Toronto a few years ago on a course and remember seeing security guards in a mall(don't ask me witch one because I can't remember) carrying side handle battons,handcuffs and wearing some form of body armour. I'm from Winnipeg and at the time it was a big deal for guards hear to be carrying cuffs let alone any of the rest. My question is has something changed over the years in Ontario that would have made carrying them OK then but not now or is it a restriction against the type of batton?

That style of baton is often called a Manadock (a company that makes them) or in martial arts a tonfa stick.  They were popular in the mid to late 90's, but there were some problems.  It is a very powerful weapon and has the potential to generate striking power that can break a cinder block.  When properly used, the pivoting action of the handle causes the momentum at the tip to be devastating.  Guys who know how to use them can make them seem like magic, and there are all kinds of cool tricks you can do with them. 
Part of the problem, as far as usage went, was that you need to do a lot of training with them to be proficient.  As well, when various training units for services looked at how officers were using them, something like 95% of officers just held it by the end and used it like a club, making the handle kind of usesless.  As well, there is no way to collapse the baton, so then you run into ergonomic issues while sitting in the cruisers.  I think most places have gone to ASP collapsable batons. 
Legislation wise, I'm not too sure.  I wouldn't surprise me to find out that places that had issued S/O's with batons later took them away once the companies got peppered with law suits from them being used.  Don't take that as a rip on private security.  Even we get sued if a shitheads cuffs are too tight and he gets an owwie.  We are starting to drift into the American style litigation nightmare. 
As far as body armour goes, why not?  There can't possibly be a downside to wearing it, other than some pantie waist thinking it looks "ooo, scary".  I always wore a vest internally at any job I ever worked.  That included the Scarborough Town Center 88-91 and the Four Seasons Hotel. 
Handcuffs are a must for anyone who may make an arrest.  Not having cuffs just ends up encouraging the asshat to keep fighting with you, and requires you to maintain them in a potentially injury-causing hold longer.  Most criminals stop fighting/trying to escape once they are cuffed.

 

[rz350]

 
Handcuffs are a must for anyone who may make an arrest.  Not having cuffs just ends up encouraging the asshat to keep fighting with you, and requires you to maintain them in a potentially injury-causing hold longer.  Most criminals stop fighting/trying to escape once they are cuffed.

True Dat! My company is cheap and wont give em to us, but we can buy our own. After two arrests without em, I am splurging for a set. I think they are an essential piece of kit for anyone who is acting in any kind of security role (bouncer, Loss prevention, regular security, anything) For the guards safety, the public's safety, and even the arrested party's safety.

If any hippie has a problem with guards carrying cuffs he can go to hell IMHO.

 

[Nug]

Don't get me wrong I'm not against guards being as well equipped as possible. I have worked security and I know first hand how painful it can be if you are forced to arrest someone without being properly equipped.I also think it is important that the Guards receive the proper and complete training in all the equipment that they are using so they understand the risk, liability and limitations of their equipment.

 

[The_Falcon]

I wouldn't surprise me to find out that places that had issued S/O's with batons later took them away once the companies got peppered with law suits from them being used.  Don't take that as a rip on private security.  Even we get sued if a shitheads cuffs are too tight and he gets an owwie.  We are starting to drift into the American style litigation nightmare. 

Not too many companies in T.O. issue batons because of the liability/insurance issues.  Intelligarde and Intercon have been using them for quite some time and they still have them.

 

[Scratch_043]

At my company, we are authorized to carry cuffs after a course in arrest procedure and use of force is taken.

Personally, I would reccomend getting a few pairs of 'quick cuffs', as it gets expensive after a few times when local law enforcement takes custody and you don't get them back, or, god forbid, flight of the suspect.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

At my company, we are authorized to carry cuffs after a course in arrest procedure and use of force is taken.

Personally, I would reccomend getting a few pairs of 'quick cuffs', as it gets expensive after a few times when local law enforcement takes custody and you don't get them back, or, god forbid, flight of the suspect.

Here's a crazy thought.  Ask the officer to exchange cuffs. 
And if your prisoner gets away in your cuffs, you don't deserve to have them or be in a uniform.