Correct Grammar, Punctuation... vs Text (Tweets, Emoji…)

[Roy Harding]

It has been (correctly) noted in other forums that I am somewhat of a stickler for correct usage of the Queen's English.  Those observations are accurate - I am.  The reason I am is that I have a sincere desire to understand what folks are driving at - the English language has a set of rules which we have all agreed upon - even if we DON'T agree with them, we can look them up and figure out what someone is trying to say.

One of the most eloquent explanations I've ever seen was written by a participant on another board - the SOCNET board.  The author is addressing a young fellow who has been making various inquiries - some of the content will seem strange out of context, but the main gist of his statement is germane:

QUOTE

The devil is in the details... attention to details is what separates the ordinary guys from the extraordinary guys. All the men who have served with SOF units are extraordinary guys who pay attention to the details... including little details like using conventional spelling in written correspondence. When you use abbreviations like "u" instead of "you", and you ask for "sum information" instead of "some information", then you show a disregard for details, and a complete disrespect for your own language.

We don't talk in computer slang here... we use complete sentences, correct punctuation, and we make an effort to correctly spell all the words we use. When we want to say "I am", we form a proper conjunction and use the word "I'm". It has an apostrophe in it. The word "im" is NOT a proper English word or contraction. This isn't an online chat room for kids who want to be "kewl". This is a forum that permits interaction between veterans who have served the nation; some of them as members of SOF units. The particular focus of THIS section of the SOCNET forum is Navy SEALs. The focus is NOT to provide young children with pen pals.

The questions you have asked are clearly addressed in numerous books and on numerous web sites dealing with military service. Your initial questions were answered by directing your attention to a book and a web site. Although you mentioned that you'd visited the web site, I seriously doubt you have read the book mentioned, or you wouldn't have asked the question.

We expect you to do your research before coming here and demanding answers to questions. We expect that you will present those questions in clear, concise, and understandable ENGLISH... not computer 'leet speak' and lazy abbreviations. We expect questions... but we expect that they will be offered with respect, and that once an answer is provided you'll take the time to do a bit more research before coming back with another question, and another, and another... and insisting that you receive answers.

I'm going to recommend that the first thing you do when you get to High School is spend some time with your English teacher, studying the English language. We respect people who can express themselves clearly... and properly. Learn to do that, and you'll get a lot more usable responses out of the men who post in this forum.

UNQUOTE

To add my own two cents to this - I've always equated language to a "code" - the rules of which we've all agreed, and which enables us to express our thoughts to each other.  When you make up your own "rules", very few people "get" what you actually mean.  Try making up your own "rules" and sending it via CANFORNACODE or CANOPSCODE - nobody will know what you're saying.

Of course, all of us are going to make typos, or unintentional spelling errors - it is the INTENTIONAL spelling/grammatical errors that drive me crazy.

Just a pet peeve of mine.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I can appreciate your statement and use of a well written summary.  That said I think you may be dismayed at the current level of education taught in our schools and you will probably find that most of these people using the abbreviated writing style of are the younger very computer savvy people.  Not an excuse just an observation.

 

[Britney Spears]

you will probably find that most of these people using the abbreviated writing style of are the younger very computer savvy people.

If by younger, you mean from the ages of 5 to 8, then you might be right. Can't really say how "computer savvy" they might be, though.

Come now, have any of you ever corresponded with an intelligent adult worth talking to, who resorts these methods? I haven't, and I've been surfin' for a while now. Children who communicate in such a manner should be banned as a simple practical measure. Like children, nothing useful to the community can possibly be extracted from them until they reach the age of majority.

 

[Roy Harding]

I can appreciate your statement and use of a well written summary.  That said I think you may be dismayed at the current level of education taught in our schools and you will probably find that most of these people using the abbreviated writing style of are the younger very computer savvy people.  Not an excuse just an observation.

You may be correct. 

However (ahem), I am ALSO "computer savvy" - built my first one in 1978 (Heathkit - anybody remember those?), and have been on the front edge of the technology since.  My last "technological edge" project was writing the software for the robot hand my (then) engineering student son built during his university days.  He's gone on to other things, I'm left with a "hand" that can pick up an ice cube from a bowl (precisely placed) and put it into your drink (again, strategeically placed) - neat party trick, but not worth much on the open market!!  I could copy the code that makes it work (FORTRAN for those who care) here, but it wouldn't make much sense to you unless you understood the "code".

The fact remains that, no matter your specialty, you MUST remain able to communicate with your fellow human beings - if you can't, you are, indeed, an "island".

Another way of putting it - when you are addressing a forum of civilians, do you not find yourself explaining the "military acronymns" you use?  Of course you do, you need to put them into plain English in order to be understood.

Of course, if it is your desire to NOT be understood, then perhaps making up your own rules is the way to go!

 

[Vigilant]

Many people of all ages seem to prefer shortcuts. It is indicative of their own lives when they can't even put out a little more effort to type properly. Yes, it takes take a little bit longer to formulate a proper sentence rather than spew out a continuous line of incomprehensible garbage. However, quality is more important than quality.

Our HR department discards all resumes with poor grammar and spelling. In this day and age of spell-checkers and grammar aids, it is astounding how many still fail to use these tools.

 

[Roy Harding]

...

Our HR department discards all resumes with poor grammar and spelling. In this day and age of spell-checkers and grammar aids, it is astounding how many still fail to use these tools.

Excellent point. 

At my current place of employment we just went through the hiring process (to replace ME, actually - I'm off to a technical college in the fall).  I was involved in the process from creating the "short list" based on resumes, to assisting the proprietor in conducting the interviews, to recommending who will replace me.  MANY resumes didn't make it past the garbage can located next to the fax machine for precisely that fault.  Even some that I kept had I typo or two - it made me wonder how much thought and care went into these documents, which were not mere postings on an Internet forum.

Retired CC

 

[paracowboy]

Children who communicate in such a manner should be banned as a simple practical measure.

further, I submit that adults who communicate in such a manner should be subjected to retroactive abortions.

 

[48Highlander]

In their defence....

the ICQ/MSN shortcuts came into wide usage not because of a lack of education, or no desire to "pay attention to details" but because of the inherently slow speed of written communication.  When you are attempting to hold several real-time conversations at once, it becomes almost neccesary to use abbriviations; otherwise you lose the attention of the other party.  So I don't see the shortening of certain words as a problem in and of itself - the problem is that these children don't comprehend the difference between a real-time chat between friends, and an organized, somewhat formal  and proffesional debate on a forum such as this one.

 

[Roy Harding]

In their defence....

the ICQ/MSN shortcuts came into wide usage not because of a lack of education, or no desire to "pay attention to details" but because of the inherently slow speed of written communication.  When you are attempting to hold several real-time conversations at once, it becomes almost neccesary to use abbriviations; otherwise you lose the attention of the other party.  So I don't see the shortening of certain words as a problem in and of itself - the problem is that these children don't comprehend the difference between a real-time chat between friends, and an organized, somewhat formal  and proffesional debate on a forum such as this one.

You're absolutely correct - both as to the origins of and the appropriate place(s) for the practice, and as to the lack of comprehension (or what I would call ignorance - in it's ORIGINAL, non-pejorative sense) on the part of some posters on these forums.

What's the cure for ignorance?  Knowledge.  How does one gain knowledge?  One way is by exposing one's ignorance and BEING CORRECTED by others.

Ignorance is a normal and correctable state - and is nothing to be ashamed of.

Continued and repeated practice of an unacceptable (to the members of an online community such as this) form of communication however, is not ignorance - it's arrogance.  It's insisting that the rest of the world change to suit MY needs and/or desires.

Ignorance doesn't bother me - in fact it encourages me that folk from such diverse backgrounds are reading these forums.  Arrogance, on the other hand, as displayed by some (an admittedly small number) who have been repeatedly corrected, and yet continue this practice, bothers me no end.

In the great scheme of things, the use of this short hand is hardly a major issue - but for all the reasons previously posted, it does not contribute to anyone's understanding of other's thoughts and opinion.

As you may have noticed by now, this happens to be one of my "hot button" issues.  I was one of those parents who caused their kids eyes to roll  : when I replied to a question "sure, you CAN go to the park, now let's discuss whether you MAY".  ;D

Edit:  Spelling (mea culpa)

 

[48Highlander]

As you may have noticed by now, this happens to be one of my "hot button" issues.   I was one of those parents who caused their kids eyes to roll   : when I replied to a question "sure, you CAN go to the park, now let's discuss whether you MAY".    ;D

I do the same thing, however, seing as I don't have children, I have to settle for doing it to new recruits  ;D  As for the rest of your post, I agree absolutely.  Ignorance is a shortcoming which I'm more than happy to assist someone in correcting;  arrogance on the other hand, drives me insane.

 

[Burrows]

At army.ca we like to maintain a professional environment.  Police each others grammar and spelling, newer members especially.

 

[Slim]

In fact this was enforced with a verbal warning not too long ago...And upped to C&P when the offender decided to disregard the origional warning by continuing to post using very unacceptable abreviations in a second thead. He then attempted to play the race card and to claim his english was not good enough to spell the offending words correctly. (you, and, I'm, ect.)

This is a privately owned website. Many, many times new members have come here and thought that they could treat the forum like their own private chatroom, then become upset when the rules are enforced.

Well, out of respect to the present members in good standing, they will continue to be enforced and without fail. That is what the site owner wants and that's what we've all agreed to do.

Slim
STAFF

 

[Gunner98]

Ideas - Option 1 - Move the really offensive ICQ/MSN style posts to a Folder titled Unacceptable Nonsensical Posts with the Author's Call Sign highlighted. This would serve two purposes - remind people through some vivid examples what is not acceptable, a sort of VW, RW/C&P historical file and second - these posts would be removed from normal flow as "unreadable".  

Option 2, force all messages to go through automatic Spell Check before they appear, if the Spell Check function includes more than 5 "ignore" hits it is rejected for post.

Option 3 is to just delete those offending posts - replace them with the statement - "Broken, distorted, unreadable, say again, over" in both official languages of course.

I understand that Radio Chatter threads are and could continue to be less stringently policed. 

I generally type or review my longer posts in MSWord, Spell/Grammar check them before copying back into Army.ca.   Just some ideas.

 

[Guardian]

Certainly, people should be reminded that there is a spell checker, and that it's great for catching typos and other gross errors...

I like Gunner98's Option 3. Number one might just make more work for the mods, and encourage more of the same ("Hey, look at what I did !!!"). Option 2 would work, except that spell checkers aren't perfect ("Know, dew knot trussed yore spell chequer!!") and that some words and acronyms commonly used on this forum aren't in the program.

You'd be surprised at the terrible quality of writing I see almost every day from university-educated officers... and the best grammarian I ever saw was a former Adjutant who was a CFR who had no degree. It really isn't education - it's personal pride in one's (electronic) appearance. Most people who talk in this ridiculous manner are just simply too lazy to do it right.

It seems to me that if this is an Army board, and we want to reflect a professional appearance, then we should police each other for this stuff. After all, it's the same thing as straightening out a fellow soldier whose pocket button is undone - professional pride. And those who wish to post here should aim to reflect the standard set by the mods. A kid who isn't willing to accept correction, even for something as simple as complete words and proper sentences, is going to have the wrong attitude when it comes to Army training...

 

[FreeFloat]

Just a quick personal observation --

I, also, absolutely abhor seeing all those "Instant Message" style abbreviations....... in my case, i happen to be a speed reader (of normal English) and trying to decipher sentences spewed out in that style is infuriatingly slow and choppy.

It's become such a big pet peeve of mine that I've even requested my IM friends to make an effort to spell things out in full, explaining the speed reading thing.   Most comply, although a few need gentle reminders from time to time.   I cut them slack on the usage of "emoticons" and phrases such as LOL, etc.

 

[George Wallace]

Maturity

Does it matter?  Does a future recruit to the Canadian Armed Forces need maturity?  Does it count at all in your interview?  Does your physical bearing show maturity?  Do good manners come with maturity?  Does a sense of responsibility come with maturity?  Respect?  Does respect for your seniors come with maturity?  Is patience a virtue and a sign of maturity?  How old does one have to be to become a mature adult?  I ask these questions because of the posts being made on this site by people who say they are researching a career in the CF, posting in their profiles that they are between 20 and 35 years of age.  People claiming to be educated adults, who can't spell or use proper grammar.  People who ask questions in the same fashion as four year olds.  If they cant show any maturity, how can they be treated as mature adults?
If they want to play the fools, they will be treated as such.

 

[P-Free]

When do the silly questions end?


P.....

 

[George Wallace]

When do the silly questions end?
P.....

Doesn't take long.  Does it?

 

[Fry]

LOL, I understand what you're trying to say George. Just that sometimes I find it hard to use 100% exact perfect grammar and punctuation, but a good 90% of the time I pick up on the errors.

But, yeah... I've got no time for those who come on here and are just terrible posters, grammatically... let alone those damn MSN talkers  :rage:

 

[Wolfe]

Maturity

Does it matter?   Does a future recruit to the Canadian Armed Forces need maturity?   Does it count at all in your interview?   Does your physical bearing show maturity?   Do good manners come with maturity?   Does a sense of responsibility come with maturity?   Respect?   Does respect for your seniors come with maturity?   Is patience a virtue and a sign of maturity?   How old does one have to be to become a mature adult?   I ask these questions because of the posts being made on this site by people who say they are researching a career in the CF, posting in their profiles that they are between 20 and 35 years of age.   People claiming to be educated adults, who can't spell or use proper grammar.   People who ask questions in the same fashion as four year olds.   If they cant show any maturity, how can they be treated as mature adults?
If they want to play the fools, they will be treated as such.

Personaly my English is not that good so excuse me for my bad sentences. I don't think that there is an age for maturity it depends of each person's past and how they live, i would say that maturity is a big factor, it is really important for the CF and for the personal life and i think that with maturity there is a lot of thinks that come along like, good manners, patience, respect, responsibilities and especially WISDOM.

Statements describing ot referring to a mature person:

If an individual is going to grow toward the kind of maturity we are talking about, he will find it helpful to have secure development, pre-adult underpinnings - he should not have to deflect his energies into "refighting" childhood battles or nursing old hurts. Maturity can only be built on sound foundations.

When a person can live with his past without being bogged down by it, he remains adaptable, capable of continued change.

Another characteristic of becoming mature is the development of wisdom.

The mature individual can be ribald or genteel, sweet or acid, jolly or glum. The important point is that he be alive, with vigorous interests that make him interesting to be with. He should have a sense of humor.

An important characteristic of the individual who becomes mature is that he is at home with reality.

The mature individual cannot look outer reality in the face unless he is prepared to look himself in the face, too. He is at home with himself.

It follows that the mature individual has to be able to love comfortably with his own body, whether it be strong or weak, handsome or ugly, healthy or failing.

If the individual's growth toward maturity is rooted in the positive emotional bonds of early infancy, human relationships are going to have a high priority for him.

The person equipped with the human sensitivities that make for maturity will usually have powerful concern with social problems and ways of alleviating them.

For all his social-mindedness, for all his savoring of human relationships, the maturing individual is not dependent on always having company.

It is apparent that the person who is becoming mature does not accept values readymade.

The mature individual has to learn when to conform and when not to conform, when to speak out and when to remain silent. His values must be so structured and scaled that he can distinguish between what is central and inviolable and what is peripheral and expendable - or at least can be postponed.

To live realistically (which by no means forbids the conscious exploitation and employment of fantasy) means to live in consciousness of one's own mortality.

The mature person knows that he has to go on choosing alternatives, that each alternative costs him something, and there are things he will never be able to do and experience. He also knows that there are things he will never be able to do again, that he can never recapture his youth or relive his first encounters with certain experiences. He knows that his integrity is continually threatened by practical demands, by seductive temptations, by concessions and compromises, by conflicting values, and can only be preserved at the cost of some psychic strain.

He knows that the only real rewards in life come with continued growth, and that there is no room in the one material life he has for major regrets. This individual who has approached maturity can know that he has loved, had done his work, has made his mark on people and, although he wishes there were more time, that he has made the most of what there was.

*From Childhood and Adolescence:
A Psychology of the Growing Person,
By: Stone & Church, 1968
University of Wisconsin - Eau Claire

Also something really important maturity is learned trought experience, if somebody comes in the forum and says something stupid or do something stupid you should make him realise, reply and make him realise that what he/she did is stupid and maybe the person will think twice and if the person
does not take your advice and argues with you, that is not a good sign and it means that the person is not capable to be in a social environement and especially far from being a good member of the CF, maybe the person will learn his mistakes trought more life experience.

In Summary: The adult with a capacity for true maturity is one who has grown out of childhood experiences without losing childhood's best traits. He has retained the basic emotional strengths of infancy, the stubborn autonomy of "toddlerhood", the capacity for wonder and pleasure and playfulness of the preschool years, the capacity for affiliation and intellectual curiosity of the school years, and the idealism and passion of adolescence. He has incorporated these into a new pattern of simplicity dominated by adult stability, wisdom, knowledge, sensitivity to other people, responsibility, strength, and purposefulness.

*From Childhood and Adolescence:
A Psychology of the Growing Person,
By: Stone & Church, 1968
University of Wisconsin - Eau Claire

Sometimes a good sign fo maturiy is when you don't want and don't feel to do something like clean or cook and many more things, is to do them but not only do them fast to get finished but do them well, it is hard but its life and it shall be like that.

George i think you just touched a big subject and i think is good that you mentioned that it makes me think and i am sure other people too.

BTW : I think that there is a problem with the Spell Check it does not replace my words it makes them double and messes my reply  .

Cheers

Wolf