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Conspiricy Theory Article About George Bush and The Invasion of Iraq

aesop081 said:
Yes i am aware of the war of 1812..thanks  ::)

I was looking for the relevance....and i'm still waiting

Well who would you rather fight? Your own people for freedom or an opposing Government who hates you.. for freedom?
Basically im just wondering what reasons someone would have for not wanting to invading Iraq.
 
Warvstar said:
Well who would you rather fight? Your own people for freedom or an opposing Government who hates you.. for freedom?
Basically im just wondering what reasons someone would have for not wanting to invading Iraq.

I was , and still am, all for the war in Iraq.....but what did the invasion have to do with freedom ?
 
Gee, I think it's been a couple of months since one of the ds told me where I should be living. I guess I've slowed down.

I think you're tied at two with Bruce M in the "lets tell sigpig where he shouldn't live sweepstakes."

Don't worry, with the way shrub and his pals are going I'm sure it'll just be a couple of years before critizing the govmint is banned. Can't have that freedom of speech stuff getting in the way of the War on Terrortm

sigpig - My only issue with you is that you wax poetically about the tyranny of the Bush regime, all the while enjoying the benefits the US has to offer. That, to me, is 2-faced and hypocritical. If these principles were as important to you as you make out, then I am surprised you haven't moved back to Canada, where things are more to your liking. It's easy to spout protests on the internet - a lot harder it seems, to take a real stand, and demonstrate, with actions, your disdain...

By the way, last I saw, DS were also allowed to make comments in threads as posters, as opposed to as Moderators. The DS comment just goes to reinforce your "poor me" mantra...
 
aesop081 said:
I was , and still am, all for the war in Iraq.....but what did the invasion have to do with freedom ?
I think that the invasion was needed to show the World that America is still in control, and that it can and will defend its freedom(and that is good for us all).
 
Warvstar said:
I think that the invasion was needed to show the World that America is still in control, and that it can and will defend its freedom(and that is good for us all).

I was clear that the US would defend itself ater OEF.......and that had a clear identifiable ennemy who had directly attacked the US.  Can't say i'm convinced that Iraq was the same.
 
aesop081 said:
I was clear that the US would defend itself ater OEF.......and that had a clear identifiable ennemy who had directly attacked the US.  Can't say i'm convinced that Iraq was the same.
Well what reasons do you support the war on iraq? I support it for the reasons I listed earlier. I dont think a Nation has to attack Another Nation before War and Conqouring is needed.
 
Warvstar said:
Well what reasons do you support the war on iraq? I support it for the reasons I listed earlier. I dont think a Nation has to attack Another Nation before War and Conqouring is needed.

Because i support the effort to bring democracy to the region.  But the ends do not justify the means.  Going to war under false pretences leads down a slipery slope IMHO.  The British and the french went to suez under false pretences and the US were less than supportive then.  Are the US that moraly superior ?
 
aesop081 said:
But the ends do not justify the means.

I think you mean the means do not justify the ends - means is armed conflict or its many flavours - ends is new state of affairs..

There were various means tried

Kick his butt - 1991
Embargo his butt
No Fly zone his butt
Shoot down his butt - 1991 - 2003
Kick his butt 2003

All the while he was doing the same thing internally while the rest of the world said poor us -

Sounds like 1940 all over again

Bravo to the US and UK and allied coalitions

 
54/102 CEF said:
I think you mean the means do not justify the ends - means is armed conflict or its many flavours - ends is new state of affairs..

There were various means tried

Kick his butt - 1991
Embargo his butt
No Fly zone his butt
Shoot down his butt - 1991 - 2003
Kick his butt 2003

All the while he was doing the same thing internally while the rest of the world said poor us -

Sounds like 1940 all over again

Bravo to the US and UK and allied coalitions

No i meant what i said, the way i said it.
 
I personally don't think that Bush should be in Iraq at all. The reasons why he invaded Iraq are fogged due to his many lies he has told the world. Did he invade to wage war on the terrorists? probably not. To find Weapons of mass destruction? That's what he told everyone. To gain more political capital? I personally think so. To protect the oil at its source? partly. To restructure the government and make it "democratic" so that free trade of the nations oil would be possible with the U.S.. YES
Theses are simply my opinions however right or wrong they may be, it's not up to me decide what is right, its up to the Americans...unfortunately.
 
Alright Mr Professional 18 yr old Student, what would you have done if given the same facts at the time? If you want to politically blast the USA, finds another site.

Considering you were only 14 or 15 (other words a CHILD) at the time of the S-11 attacks, I suggest you learn a bit more on the reality of life and WAR before you go off spouting your anti-Americanism crap.

BTW, you should amend your profile, as you are listed as a PTE Recruit with a MOC other an 001, until you are so qualified, I think you owe that much to others that have earned it.

If you are so much against them, may I suggest a career with McDonalds (oops thats a US company) or maybe Timmy's, as you might find yourself one day sitting in some shithole country in the middle east, (getting heaps of support from The Great Satan) where you are NOT hated because you are an American, but hated because you are a WESTERNER.

Quite frankly it really shits me to tears when people of your calibre (life experience nil) post such political shit on some text book re-inforced values without regards to life on Real Street.

Rant off.


 
I'm not politically blasting the USA. I just dont agree with what bush is doing. And due to numerous speeches of rhettoric by Bush, I dont think that the general population of the USA will really understand the motives of the invasion. However, through forums like this I hope that some Americans may gain broader perspective on the situation.
On another note, I don't appreciate your condesending attitude. Your right I am only 18 and have much to learn. That doesn't mean I can't express my opinions on a certain issue, given the information I have researched and received. And possibly I dont completely understand war. So enlighten me oh wise one.
 
Pte (R) Johnson said:
I'm not politically blasting the USA. I just dont agree with what bush is doing. And due to numerous speeches of rhettoric by Bush, I dont think that the general population of the USA will really understand the motives of the invasion. However, through forums like this I hope that some Americans may gain broader perspective on the situation.

The general population voted him in   ::) All you doing is making yourself look like an ill-informed idiot. Thats my opinion anyway.

You go ahead and believe what you wanna believe, just stick your head in the sand and all those bad guys out there (who hate Canadians as much as Americans and Australians and other westerners), will go away.

Amend your profile yet?
 
Wesley H. Allen said:
The general population voted him in   ::)

What does this have to do with anything?
I know that this is how democratic elections take place. However, is it not possible that due to so much rhettoric and propaganda people may be un informed or mis informed?

Maybe you should stop and wonder why all those people in the world hate us. Maybe then you will get a better perspective of where I am coming from.
 
Here's a strong antidote to the usual conspiracy fluff we've been hearing lately - it's by Christopher Hitchens and he does a much better job in demolishing the Downing Street Memo "evidence" than I can,

Cheers, mdh

---------------------------------------------------------

Conspiracy Theories
If you liked The Da Vinci Code, you'll love the Downing Street memo.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Tuesday, June 21, 2005, at 9:42 AM PT


A few weeks ago, at an airport in Europe, I saw Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code staring at me across the bookstore bins. I had seen it many times before and averted my gaze, but I was facing a long delay, and I suddenly thought: May as well get it over with.

Well, of course I knew it would be bad. I just didn't know that it would be that bad. Never mind for now the breathless and witless style, or the mashed-paper characters, or the lazy, puerile reliance on incredible coincidence to flog the lame plot along. What if it was all true? What if the Nazarene had had issue, in fleshly form, with an androgynous disciple? The Catholic Church would look foolish but, then, it already looks foolish enough on the basis of the official story. "Opus Dei," according to Brown, is a sinister cult organization. Excuse me, but I already knew this, so to speak, independently.

Over the past month, I have hardly been able to open my e-mail without a flood of similarly portentous tripe concerning the "Downing Street memo(s)." This time, it is not the interior of a Templar Church but the style of a clerk in the British Foreign Office that furnishes "the key to all mythologies." A former CIA hand named Ray McGovern has challenged me to debate about the "smoking gun" contained in the Downing Street palimpsests, and I have agreed, in principle. Other correspondents have helpfully added other "smoking guns" as e-mail attachments. A man named Morgan Reynolds, a former chief economist at the Bush Labor Department and now an instructor at Texas A&M, has proof that the World Trade Center was laid low by a "controlled demolition" and not by the hijacked planes. This is a refreshing change from the Gore Vidal view that the Bush administration knowingly grounded all military aircraft in order to give the al-Qaida teams a clear shot. But perhaps both those theories are congruent: One wouldn't want to exclude any options if one were a Republican seeking to incinerate the downtown business HQ of capitalist globalization.

I am not one of those who uses the term "conspiracy theory" as an automatic sneer of dismissal. Conspiracies do occur. I spent a lot of my life at one point trying to show that William Casey of the Reagan-era CIA had made a private deal with the Iranian hostage-takers in 1979, inducing them to keep their prisoners until the Carter administration had been defeated, and I still firmly believe that something of the sort (which eventually culminated in the Iran-Contra underworld) was at least attempted. So do many senior members of both parties in Washington, with whom I am still in touch.

But the main Downing Street document does not introduce us to any hidden or arcane or occult knowledge. As Fred Kaplan wrote in Slate last week, it explains no mystery. As protagonist Jim Dixon observes in another context in Lucky Jim, it is remarkable for "its niggling mindlessness, its funereal parade of yawn-enforcing facts, the pseudo-light it threw upon non-problems." On a visit to Washington in the prelude to the Iraq war, some senior British officials formed the strong and correct impression that the Bush administration was bent upon an intervention. Their junior note-taker committed the literary and political solecism of saying that intelligence findings and "facts" were being "fixed" around this policy.

Well, if that doesn't prove it, I don't know what does. We apparently have an administration that can, on the word of a British clerk, "fix" not just findings but also "facts." Never mind for now that the English employ the word "fix" in a slightly different wayâ ”a better term might have been "organized."

We have been here before. In an interview with Sam Tanenhaus for Vanity Fair more than two years ago, Paul Wolfowitz allowed that, though there were many reasons to seek the removal of Saddam Hussein, the legal minimum basis for it was to be sought, inside the U.S. government bureaucracy and at the United Nations, in the unenforced resolutions concerning WMD. At the time, this mild observation was also hailed as a full confession of perfidy.

I am now forced to wonder: Who is there who does not know that the Bush administration decided after September 2001 to change the balance of power in the region and to enforce the Iraq Liberation Act, passed unanimously by the Senate in 1998, which made it overt American policy to change the government of Iraq? This was a fairly open conspiracy, and an open secret. Given that everyone from Hans Blix to Jacques Chirac believed that Saddam was hiding weapons from inspectors, it made legal sense to advance this case under the banner of international law and to treat Saddam "as if" (and how else?) his strategy of concealment and deception were prima facie proof. The British attorney generalâ ”who has no jurisdiction in these 50 statesâ ”was worried that "regime change" alone would not be a sufficient legal basis. One appreciates his concern. But the existence of the Saddam regime was itself a defiance of all known international laws, and we had before us the consequences of previous failures to act, in Bosnia and Rwanda, where action would have been another word for "regime change."

Many in the British Foreign Office, like many in the American State Department and the CIA, felt more comfortable with the status quo as they knew it (which might explain the hapless references elsewhere in the memos to Iraq's "Sunni majority"). But theirs is only one opinion among many. How odd that the American left, when it is not busy swallowing the unpunctuated words of the CIA, follows this with another helping of wisdom from the most reactionary institution of the British state.

If such a "left" is not careful, it will end up consoling itself in futile bitterness and resentment in the way that the Old Right used to do: by brooding on the hellish manner in which FDR told the Japanese to "bring it on" at Pearl Harbor. (The anti-war right of today, led by Pat Buchanan, was raised and nurtured on this very fantasy, as were Gore Vidal and the other Charles Lindbergh fans.) I am in favor of taking such theories at face value, as a thought experiment, to see how they pan out. It is clear that Roosevelt hoped that the Japanese empire would make a mistake and furnish a pretext for war: The plain evidence of this hope is what keeps the conspiracy theory alive. I myself rather doubt that he would have wanted to start such a war with the loss of the Pacific Fleet, but still, he did think a confrontation was inevitable, as indeed it was. And William Casey may have seen the chance for a double coup: taking credit for the release of the Iranian hostages and discrediting Jimmy Carter into the bargain. But if it had all come out at the time, and been proven, would this change my attitude to Japanese imperialism or to Iranian hostage-taking theocracy? Certainly not. The demand would be to impeach those responsible in Washington and to form a national bipartisan alliance to fight even harder against our enemies, and in defense of our friends.

Full circle, then: The outrage about the nondisclosures in the Downing Street memos has led Congressman Walter Jones of North Carolina to demand that we tell the al-Qaida forces in Iraq exactly when we intend to give up. Jones is the right-wing bigmouth who once wanted to rename French fries "freedom fries." He was a moral and political cretin when he did that and, not to my surprise, he has been unable to stop being a moral and political cretin since. He and his new friends are welcome to each other. They illustrate exactly how the credulous search for Da Vinci codes is the sign of feeble minds.
 
Condascending?

I dont think that the general population of the USA will really understand the motives of the invasion. However, through forums like this I hope that some Americans may gain broader perspective on the situation.

... and THIS isn't condascending?
 
Pte (R) Johnson said:
I dont think that the general population of the USA will really understand the motives of the invasion.

You said it, and if you can't figure out why I repsonded, do you know what you are even saying  :eek:. I say give it a rest, and amend your profile.

WRT the democratic process, how many elections have you voted in anyways (excluding school elections) ?

 
I should have really rephrased that. I don't believe that they now understand the true reasons for the invasion. THats not to say that they are incapable of understanding. And I have voted once and have never missed and election I have legally been allowed to partake in.
 
Please take it to PM's if its going to get personal.  Just a reminder to all to keep it civil or this will be, unfortunately, another locked topic.
 
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