Conflict in Darfur, Sudan - The Mega Thread

[Cloud Cover]

Dallaire is becoming more and more incoherent and thus a perfect Liberal. I predict his run for the leadership.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I can see it now:

Ding, ding, ding,

In this corner in the blue trunks weighing in at ...pounds is ....

 

[COBRA-6]

I think 6 month tours are too short when you consider all the work that goes into force generation, training, leave, handover, HLTA, etc... 8 or 9 months may be a good compromise. More return on investment, so to speak.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Keeping in mind that the work up is 3-4 months in some cases.  Added together your looking at 10 months or 1 year and 4 months.

 

[Lost_Warrior]

Keeping in mind that the work up is 3-4 months in some cases.

We were told by our SSM that the work up training for Afghanistan that will be deployed with R22R is 11 months, on top of a 6 month tour.  Thats almost 2 years.

 

[Burrows]

We were told by our SSM that the work up training for Afghanistan that will be deployed with R22R is 11 months, on top of a 6 month tour.  Thats almost 2 years.

More like 1.5.

 

[Sapper41]

While I do not agree with tour rotations longer than 6(ish) months much of what Lewis Mackenzie makes sense too me.  Deploying troops to Darfur is a matter of will.  The CF could do it if we went to a higher mobilization of the reserves for subsequent rotos.  It would be confusing for NDP types to argue, mobilization for 'Peacekeeping'.  But it also might look a lot like a draft or conscription IE political suicide to a minority government.  Like most things in life it's not a matter of can't, it's more won't.

 

[Edward Campbell]

... Deploying troops to Darfur is a matter of will.  The CF could do it ...

Leaving aside the international politics/international law (which says, pretty clearly, that Canada may not do it without the explicit permission of Sudan’s government - permission which, equally explicitly, Sudan (a sovereign state) has withheld), I have a few questions:

• How many rotations?

• To accomplish what, exactly?  (Well, not exactly, just roughly.)

• How shall we get there and how shall we sustain ourselves there?

• Who is going with us?

It is not that I object to going to Darfur; quite the contrary: I believe a crime against humanity is being committed and I believe we, the United Nations, have a duty to invade Sudan, defeat its murderous government, rescue Darfur, etc, etc, etc.  I am about 99.99% certain that the UN will not do this – it is not Canadian will which is lacking, it is global will.

Sudan is, probably, pretty easy to sort out.  We just need a fairly small ‘Western’ (America, Australia, Britain, Canada, New Zealand and Singapore will do nicely) force to invade/defeat a Muslim nation – part of the umma – and then occupy it for 20+ years because that is what it will take, at minimum, to start, much less do the job.

I have another idea: send India, under some sort of UN mandate – maybe we revive 50 year trusteeships or something.  The Indians have a large, capable army, good civil servants to do some nation building and they are just as likely as the ‘West’ to “save” Darfur and Sudan. 

 

[Cloud Cover]

I have another idea: send India, under some sort of UN mandate – maybe we revive 50 year trusteeships or something.  The Indians have a large, capable army, good civil servants to do some nation building and they are just as likely as the ‘West’ to “save” Darfur and Sudan. 

I get it!! They could even make a 'Bollywood' movie out of it!!

"You say Sedan, I say Sudan" -Starring Hrithik Roshan and Peggy Mason. Directed by Romeo Dallaire. Produced by Jack Layton with a supporting cast of (mis)leading actors from the Polaris Institute of bad acting.

Story Line - Former Jewel of the Empire rescues jewel of the Nile in Sudan.


Edited to add alternate title: " You say Sudatenland, I say Sudanastan"

 

[Kirkhill]

maybe we revive 50 year trusteeships or something

I say Edward, mandates?    Everything old is new again.

 

[Sapper41]

Just to clarify my intent was to show the enormity of the task and what it would take to achieve it.  No one in opposition will admit what 'peacekeeping' in Sudan will actually mean. Occupation of Sudan, a whole lot of killing and a whole lot of nation building... not necessarily in that order.  

Until African governments stop using world bank money to buy arms Africa and it's people are in for generations of conflict and genocide. Most western armies are deathly afraid of Africa, not to mention Islamic Africa.  

Lefties may want to get into Darfur, but they have no idea what they would be getting the CF into.  The firepower required and the sheer number of casualties such a mission would generate would indeed require a level of mobilization not seen since Korea.  The optics of a generally white western country invading yet another (70%) Muslim country to show them how to live will ignite yet more violence and terrorist acts.  On this point alone I'm sure governments have said yikes and used troop shortages as the issue.

 

[GO!!!]

+1 to all Sapper41.

We should also be considering our national interest in Darfur, ie, there is none.

I propose that we send Romeo Dallaire to Darfur with a blue baseball cap and a copy of the Canadian Constitution. Perhaps he can finance some development from the sales of his book, and the large, unearned salary that he recieves as a senator.    >

 

[TCBF]

"I have another idea: send India, under some sort of UN mandate – maybe we revive 50 year trusteeships or something.  The Indians have a large, capable army, good civil servants to do some nation building and they are just as likely as the ‘West’ to “save” Darfur and Sudan."

- As well, the Indians don't have a history of bashing themselves over every minor ROE 'incident'. 

 

[North Star]

It's about time someone took Dallaire to task for his constant change of opinion. As for not pulling punches, good for Lew.

 

[3rd Horseman]

Dallaire spewing his rhetoric again....and this from the biggest coward seen in recent times, he had the chance to grab the big brass ring and failed killed his troops and killed civilians for his lack of courage. Go get him lew!

  1  year ouch, seems doing 90 day rotos would be better go in every 18 months stay so fresh no work up needed and your family and unit could loose you for 90 days and not need to replace.

 

[COBRA-6]

The Fins often do tours 1 to 2 years in length, but they work a schedule of 6 weeks in theatre, 2 week at home. That might be another option...

 

[a_majoor]

So long as there is a general refusal to see or understand that proposing intervention really means promoting an invasion of a sovereign nation, there will be a constant chorus of calls for us to go.

Should the government cave and actually send a TF to Dafur, it will suddenly be the "unilateral" Conservatives conducting an "illegal" (actually true) operation, etc. Should the government fall and an alternative party gain power and send a TF, the inevitable combat, casualties etc. will be the fault of the Americans......

The idea of India going in and doing the job is intriguing, to say the least, and as a fellow "Anglosphere" nation they would be able to get and use technical support from the other members of the club. However, the same question of interest would also bedevil the Indian government, what possible reason would they have or want to intervene?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Totally off subject........however, I've heard both speak. I would pay $100.00 to hear the same speech, I've already heard, from Mac, but a dozen donkeys couldn't drag me to hear Dallaire again. The first grips and holds the audience with knowledge and kindred experience. The other spews political rhetoric and partisan posturing. He has never had a real connection to the troops. The first speaker has been firm in his beliefs and the second has done lieberal acrobaticts, doing constant backflips to appease his political masters that appointed him to the exhalted and toothless, albeit quite well paying , position of Senator. He should have taken his soldier's pension and gone to Fiji, never to be heard from again.

 

[sgtdixon]

Daillaire Accusing Someone of Cowardice and Lack of Action....
Pot this is Kettle, radio check, over.

 

[manhole]

we have a friend who served in Rwanda.............he has absolutely nothing good to say about Dallaire and loathes the man.  I trust our friend's opinion because he has first-hand knowledge of Dallaire's behaviour.  Ask the Belgians what their opinion is ...........

Ubique