CH-148 Cyclone Progress

[Maxman1]

They still share 60% parts commonality. Much better than 0.

True. Although the idea of replacing the Griffons with EH101s was mentioned, which would be just as good if not better, that is, assuming the Model 111/Merlin HM1 and Model 411/Merlin HC3 don't also have different airframes and other major components.

 

[Good2Golf]

GOC/DND is implementing a Griffon Limited Life Extension (GLLE) project to extend the effective life expectancy (ELE) of the Ch-146 fleet, so there is neither logic to stop that effort, nor to replace the CH-146 with a helicopter three times larger/heavier…that job is done quite decently by the Chinook. For people who haven’t stood beside a Cormorant/Merlin, they are a pretty big helicopter…far larger than a utility tactical helicopter need be.

 

[KevinB]

GOC/DND is implementing a Griffon Limited Life Extension (GLLE) project to extend the effective life expectancy (ELE) of the Ch-146 fleet, so there is neither logic to stop that effort, nor to replace the CH-146 with a helicopter three times larger/heavier…that job is done quite decently by the Chinook. For people who haven’t stood beside a Cormorant/Merlin, they are a pretty big helicopter…far larger than a utility tactical helicopter need be.

I’m still of the opinion that the GLLE was throwing good money after bad… But I do agree that the EH-101/Merlin/AW-101 isn’t the platform to replace the Griffon with.

I do think that Sik/LocMart however would be willing to cut a screaming deal on HH-60 platforms to get Canada out of the Cyclone as it’s a black eye for them too…

 

[dimsum]

I’m still of the opinion that the GLLE was throwing good money after bad… But I do agree that the EH-101/Merlin/AW-101 isn’t the platform to replace the Griffon with.

I do think that Sik/LocMart however would be willing to cut a screaming deal on HH-60 platforms to get Canada out of the Cyclone as it’s a black eye for them too…

Hopefully it’s the SH-60 vice HH-60 platform…

 

[GR66]

Hopefully it’s the SH-60 vice HH-60 platform…

HH-60...then we can Canadianize it!

 

[Maxman1]

Personally, I think the best option would be buying a fleet of UH-1Ys to supplement and eventually replace the Griffon, with the goal of a larger fleet than the Griffon.

 

[OldSolduer]

HH-60...then we can Canadianize it!

Of course we can!!! How?

 

[KevinB]

Hopefully it’s the SH-60 vice HH-60 platform…

I was using HH as a generic.
Mainly to get it the door.

Personally, I think the best option would be buying a fleet of UH-1Ys to supplement and eventually replace the Griffon, with the goal of a larger fleet than the Griffon.

The Y has very little in common with the 412/Griffon. It’s got more in common with the AH-1Z (oddly).

Had the GLLE been a Y at the start I would have been fairly happy — as I’m sure 427 would have then build a few AH-1Z’s out of parts by ‘accident’, and you’d actually have an attack helicopter.

 

[Maxman1]

The Y has very little in common with the 412/Griffon. It’s got more in common with the AH-1Z (oddly).

Had the GLLE been a Y at the start I would have been fairly happy — as I’m sure 427 would have then build a few AH-1Z’s out of parts by ‘accident’, and you’d actually have an attack helicopter.

Nothing odd there, the Cobras are variants of the Huey and have always had large amounts of compatibility. And we should absolutely also get AH-1Zs.

My thinking was the Y is "close enough if you squint" to the 412 that it could be sold as buying more of the same.

 

[Baz]

I'll admit that I'm biased here... of the three sides of the procurement triangle (provider [the contractors], users [the Wing], and "Ottawa") I've set at two and closely advised the third, but...

I think we would actually spend less money in the long run paying for the "Cadillac" or "Buick" or whatever it is we already bought. Fund the contractors to complete the currently required mods a higher amount than what it would otherwise cost to make their bottom line less smelly, on the condition that they deliver in a operational effective and timely manner.

For reference, those mods are:

• Multi-Fleet Air Traffic Management Avionics, consisting off:
  • Mode 5 and ADS-B transponder (absolutely essential for current ops given the retirement of Mode 4 codes)
  • Mode 5 Interrogator
  • Heli-TAWS (Terrain Avoidance Warning System)
• Mk-54 Torpedo (Mk-46 "upgrade) integration
• Link-16 (overdue given the retirement of Link-11 capabilities including crypto)
• AIS (Automatic Identification System) integration

As well, do a better job of delinking flying hours from contractor payments, given the Wing isn't flying the predicted hours at this point, so that fixed costs are paid, allowing the contractors to bump the spares pools.

Finally, pay for contracted people (not civil servants, they will become permanent) to help the Wing complete the transition.

Caveat to all of this is if one of the contractors pulls out then we need to replace the fleet for sure.

... but I'm fully aware this path won't be taken in the current contractual and fiscal environment.

By the way, the only aircraft that meets the Canadian CONOPs and SOR that I know are the Cyclone and the Merlin (given the UK CONOPs is broadly similar), which isn't to say we couldn't change said CONOPs and SOR. But that should come before we talk about the aircraft, crewing, etc.

My 2 cents...

 

[suffolkowner]

Long ago I read this post and see that he is back posting

HELICOPTERS, AS THEY SHOULD BE

A blog about contemporary defence issues from a Canadian perspective.

jgmjgm516.blogspot.com

"CYCLONES, CORMARANTS, CHINOOKS & GRIFFONS
In this most likely and least desirable scenario all goes according to current plans. Cyclones replace Sea Kings, Cormorants carry on as search and rescue aircraft, the Chinooks come in to service, in one squadron, and the Griffons go on until replaced by some similar helicopter which can be fitted with the reconnaissance and weapons packages now available to the Griffons. This scenario commends itself to those who can not envision any other way of doing things. It also contains the worst elements of our current situation. Small groups of many helicopters which fail to reach “critical mass”, which are expensive to maintain, and which are vulnerable to budget cuts."


Likely that we will bungle along unless the Cyclone situation is really that bad in which case it seems like the most logical path would be to go with the 101. Hard to believe that it would upset the Poilievre government to do so

 

[KevinB]

I'll admit that I'm biased here... of the three sides of the procurement triangle (provider [the contractors], users [the Wing], and "Ottawa") I've set at two and closely advised the third, but...

I think we would actually spend less money in the long run paying for the "Cadillac" or "Buick" or whatever it is we already bought. Fund the contractors to complete the currently required mods a higher amount than what it would otherwise cost to make their bottom line less smelly, on the condition that they deliver in a operational effective and timely manner.

For reference, those mods are:

• Multi-Fleet Air Traffic Management Avionics, consisting off:
  • Mode 5 and ADS-B transponder (absolutely essential for current ops given the retirement of Mode 4 codes)
  • Mode 5 Interrogator
  • Heli-TAWS (Terrain Avoidance Warning System)
• Mk-54 Torpedo (Mk-46 "upgrade) integration
• Link-16 (overdue given the retirement of Link-11 capabilities including crypto)
• AIS (Automatic Identification System) integration

As well, do a better job of delinking flying hours from contractor payments, given the Wing isn't flying the predicted hours at this point, so that fixed costs are paid, allowing the contractors to bump the spares pools.

Finally, pay for contracted people (not civil servants, they will become permanent) to help the Wing complete the transition.

Caveat to all of this is if one of the contractors pulls out then we need to replace the fleet for sure.

... but I'm fully aware this path won't be taken in the current contractual and fiscal environment.

By the way, the only aircraft that meets the Canadian CONOPs and SOR that I know are the Cyclone and the Merlin (given the UK CONOPs is broadly similar), which isn't to say we couldn't change said CONOPs and SOR. But that should come before we talk about the aircraft, crewing, etc.

My 2 cents...

SOR’s at times mean nothing for the GOC… You should remember that

 

[Navy_Pete]

Finally, pay for contracted people (not civil servants, they will become permanent) to help the Wing complete the transition.

Out of curiousity, why this one? Most project teams are temporary positions, but in practice means you have permanent people that just move to the next project. There is a lot of commonaility and aside from the core team that does the specifics for the platform, most of the surrounding bits only differ in the deep weeds. Usually the roll outs can take years, and there is enough work you can have a career going from one project to the next.

We already use contractors to help cover staffing gaps on projects, but it costs a lot more (or there is a big experience gap and learning curve). That real experience at the whole process is huge in avoiding pitfalls, as well as understanding the context of previous roll outs to understand what LLs may or may not apply and adjusting accordingly.

For example there are a lot of people on both NSS yards that just transition from one project to the other, as well as a lot of people matrixed in to offset the actual PMO staff. It's not like when the projects end the civil servants just sit at home drawing a pay check with no responsibilities.

 

[Baz]

Out of curiousity, why this one? ...

I'm not talking about project people; there is already enough of them in Ottawa. I'm talking about people on the Wing to help with transition.

They don't have people to move forward with procedures (the SMM has huge holes), FOT&E (MHTEF is empty), tactics, EW/Acoustic/Link positions, and even instructors (which is another issue right now). All those positions exist in the REMAR (or whatever it is called now) but are empty.

Back fill them with short term ex-operators on contract or as reservists. But definitely not with civil servants or contractor companies as neither one of them have the best interests of the Wing first (this is from experience).

But again takes money... which in mind should be available given all the empty REMAR positions. Unfortunately, that is not how funding and budgets work.

 

[Baz]

SOR’s at times mean nothing for the GOC… You should remember that

Oh, I know that. However, the community should at least try to get it right so it is clear to them how they are moving forward.

 

[OldSolduer]

Of course we can!!! How?

I know - a block heater??

 

[Navy_Pete]

I'm not talking about project people; there is already enough of them in Ottawa. I'm talking about people on the Wing to help with transition.

They don't have people to move forward with procedures (the SMM has huge holes), FOT&E (MHTEF is empty), tactics, EW/Acoustic/Link positions, and even instructors (which is another issue right now). All those positions exist in the REMAR (or whatever it is called now) but are empty.

Back fill them with short term ex-operators on contract or as reservists. But definitely not with civil servants or contractor companies as neither one of them have the best interests of the Wing first (this is from experience).

But again takes money... which in mind should be available given all the empty REMAR positions. Unfortunately, that is not how funding and budgets work.

There is actually a shortage of project people in Ottawa that is slowing down projects. It's not just on DND side, there are a lot of people on the PSPC, ISED, TBS and other sides that area bottle neck in getting through approval gates.

I see what you mean for the short term, project specific contractors; that's kind of the perfect use for that kind of thing, and is generally filled by retired CAF folks. For some of that you can build into the project as part of the initial roll out, but as we usually do 'train the trainers', but then don't have any kind of sustainment plan after that. I think people also frequently underestimate the lead time or overlook the training requirements in a lot of big projects, especially when it's something that requires a lot of delta training for new equipment, but that tends to be one of the first things that gets cut (along with spares and tech data in initial provisioning) to reduce 'project costs' and then means you now have massive in service costs for things that are part of the project.

At one point we tried filling our empty remar positions with reservists, the entire process took about a year to post the position, and then got zero takers for 7 different jobs, so it's also not something you can do last minute and have no risks. For brand new kit as well there is also the risk of developing things in house where we adopt obsolete tactics and procedures that maybe no longer makes sense for new kit and changes to the design, but that can start at the SOR side of things as well and roll through. If everyone else on the planet has changed how they are doing something (or or has kept doing something that works) maybe we don't need a bespoke Canadian requirement.

 

[Good2Golf]

Nothing odd there, the Cobras are variants of the Huey and have always had large amounts of compatibility. And we should absolutely also get AH-1Zs.

My thinking was the Y is "close enough if you squint" to the 412 that it could be sold as buying more of the same.

Look at the driveline. The only thing shared between Griffon, Yankee and Cobra are the tail rotor pedals (a Bell model 204 p/n, BTW).”, and between Griffon and Yankee the tail pedals and the small side cargo door. Yankees and Cobras share the same engines (GE T700) and transmission and many other dynamic components, so significant commonality on big moving pieces across AH-1Z, UH-1Y, UH-60, HH-60, MH-60 and SH-60…

SOR’s at times mean nothing for the GOC… You should remember that

Other times it’s a convenient tool to steer, delay and/or obfuscate.

 

[Maxman1]

Look at the driveline. The only thing shared between Griffon, Yankee and Cobra are the tail rotor pedals (a Bell model 204 p/n, BTW).”, and between Griffon and Yankee the tail pedals and the small side cargo door. Yankees and Cobras share the same engines (GE T700) and transmission and many other dynamic components, so significant commonality on big moving pieces across AH-1Z, UH-1Y, UH-60, HH-60, MH-60 and SH-60…

I know. The 412 is a civilian market evolution of the original Vietnam era Huey, not the Twin Huey, so there's almost nothing in common with the Yankee and Zulu, not even the engine (the 412 uses a single Whitney & Pratt Canada PT6 instead of twin GE T700s).

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Two quick questions here, for those who know:

1) Is the line for the AW-101 still open? And,
2) How long is the US planning on continuing producing SH-60-R?

They seem like relevant question to me where cost is concerned and where any replacement plan can be contemplated (i.e. if the Americans are moving soon to another platform, no point in acquiring the old one and if the 101 line is closed, why be the ones paying the extra to restart it).