CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split

[Jarnhamar]

So basically 1-2 yrs of wait time to go through the recruiting process is okay with you then?
Well since it is not your life/time that gets wasted I can see how you may not be able to understand my point of view.

I'm actually in your corner and I think you and people like you have a better idea on how messed up the recruiting system currently is over us guys and girls who had to deal with it 10, 15 and 20 years ago. You need to make your voice heard and you need to help change the system because the future of the Canadian Forces is people like you.

On the other hand before you go bitching and insinuating we don't know what it's like to have our time wasted grab your head and shake it really hard because we've all dealt with it and had our time wasted by the system. Dare I say some of it is more significant than waiting a year to join.

If you want to make shoe wearing references yours are brand new and shiny, ours are worn down and our 9th pair.

:2c:

 

[PMedMoe]

Potential applicants are not priority.  Priority goes to actual soldiers that need it for deployment, jobs, postings etc etc.

My understanding is that it's the complete opposite.  New applicants are the priority because those of us already in have had at least one security check done.  My last security update was submitted in 2006 and (finally) updated on EMAA in 2010.

 

[George Wallace]

My understanding is that it's the complete opposite.  New applicants are the priority because those of us already in have had at least one security check done.  My last security update was submitted in 2006 and (finally) updated on EMAA in 2010.

Roughly, the highest priority was placed on those Deploying, then those requiring Special Access, then those in the Recruiting system, then those doing upgrades, and lastly those doing updates.  Priorities are subject to change of course.  Also remember that those applying to join are for the most part not doing Security Clearances, only Security Checks.  Two completely different things.  The Security Checks were contracted out to a private firm, Back Check.  (I am not sure whether or not they still do or not.) 

On the note of "References", it takes time for a small staff to contact the number of References of all the prospects who are applying, as well as finding those References at home or work when contact is attempting to be made.

 

[Remius]

Unless it has changed but I doubt it.

The brand new infantry private who just joined does not have his Level 1 initiated until he's in.  Anyone needing upgrades for specific postings or job requirements or deployments.  DPM(Sec) also does all civy employees as well. Those are priority.  So you may have level 1 but you need level 2 for the job you will be doing next summer for example.

New security clearance applictions for members are priority but Canadian forces applicants who need pre-security clearances were not.  Yours was likey an update and not an upgrade.

If things have changed then I'll stand corrected.  Someone in that world DPM (Sec) would have better knowledge of this as I am going by the briefings I received when I was in recruiting and more recently here where I work now.

 

[PMedMoe]

Okay, I see the difference now.  Check vs. update.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Create the positions. Use class B to replace med techs until numbers raise. Now, I can't find how many recruiting centers we have off hand, so it is possible that I am vastly underestimating the required but it can't be a huge number. Certainly, it could be filled in a few years due to the greater efficiency of the recruiting system.
You could even start small with only major centers like van, tor, mtl, etc.

IIRC, Res Med Techs (Med As?) don't get the same quals as Reg Force Med Techs, so you'd be looking at 6A or 6B qual'd Res ones to do perform the tasks a Reg Force 5s qual'd Med Tech can do.  I could be off, but I've heard something along that line before.

Assuming that is close to true, where do you get all the qual'd Res ones at?  Who pays for it; if you recall, full time Reserve positions have been drastically cut recently.

 

[PMedMoe]

IIRC, Res Med Techs (Med As?) don't get the same quals as Reg Force Med Techs, so you'd be looking at 6A or 6B qual'd Res ones to do perform the tasks a Reg Force 5s qual'd Med Tech can do.

Air Reserve Med Techs do the same training as Reg F Med Techs.  Not sure about the Naval Reserve ones.  The Army isn't the only one with Reserves. 

 

[TCM621]

There are a lot comments along the lines of "who is paying" and "who is going to lose PYs" etc. For this to work the government would have to create the positions and fund them.

Even if they did nothing more than invest in a technological solution for CFATs, they could cut weeks off the wait time. There is no real reason why you need to book times and have invigilators for CFATs. A CBT could do it faster and better. You could even reappropriate the PYs allocated for CFAT administration to other bottlenecks.

 

[TCM621]

IIRC, Res Med Techs (Med As?) don't get the same quals as Reg Force Med Techs, so you'd be looking at 6A or 6B qual'd Res ones to do perform the tasks a Reg Force 5s qual'd Med Tech can do.  I could be off, but I've heard something along that line before.

Assuming that is close to true, where do you get all the qual'd Res ones at?  Who pays for it; if you recall, full time Reserve positions have been drastically cut recently.

Many PRes med techs are better qualified than their regular force equivalents due to their civilian employment. And if I can be treated at the MIR by reservists on Class B then I would think qualifications would be similar.

 

[DAA]

There are a lot comments along the lines of "who is paying" and "who is going to lose PYs" etc. For this to work the government would have to create the positions and fund them.

Even if they did nothing more than invest in a technological solution for CFATs, they could cut weeks off the wait time. There is no real reason why you need to book times and have invigilators for CFATs. A CBT could do it faster and better. You could even reappropriate the PYs allocated for CFAT administration to other bottlenecks.

CFAT is already CBT and has been for sometime.  That's why it's called the "e-CFAT".  There are no paper answer sheets, point and click.

It's an "exam" you are mandated to have invigilators and CFRC's are only allowed to have a limited few as it is "controlled testing material".

 

[TCBF]

So basically 1-2 yrs of wait time to go through the recruiting process is okay with you then?
Well since it is not your life/time that gets wasted I can see how you may not be able to understand my point of view.
I have a friend (born in Canada of British parents) who had to wait for more than 2+ years for 'her' background/reliability checks to be completed. That's a waste of time. I am told the reason is lack of staff who do the checks. There are a handful of them in Canada.
Wasting peoples' time/energy/life should be unacceptable. And this is the same process I have embarked upon and I am worried it is going to take years for me too. It'd be great if you could put yourself in my shoes for a moment ((guessing you know nothing about me)) and see how that eventual wait time can be very stressful and unproductive.

thx

- If it was me setting policy, I would severely ration the amount of time and expense clearing new hires. For the most part, unless they possess some esoteric skill set your bog standard fourth or tenth generation Canadian peasant does not have, it is just too much effort. Fairness be damned, we are bleeding people and have to focus our budget on the possible.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Many PRes med techs are better qualified than their regular force equivalents due to their civilian employment.

Do those civie qual's = "can perform this task/procedure in uniform as a Reservist"?

And if I can be treated at the MIR by reservists on Class B then I would think qualifications would be similar.

I think if you talk to a Med Tech, you will find out a Army Reserve QL5 and a Reg Force QL5 do not have the same POs etc.  I am not a Med Tech, and don't play one on TV, but I've known lots and this is how a Med Tech PO2 (reg Frce) explained it to me once.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Air Reserve Med Techs do the same training as Reg F Med Techs.  Not sure about the Naval Reserve ones.  The Army isn't the only one with Reserves. 

Doh!  Seen...any thoughts on the Reg Force vs Army and/or Navy Res Med Tech courses equiv's?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

For this to work the government would have to create the positions and fund them.

Which would in turn, come out of the CAF budget.  I'd rather see the $ go to ops & trg.

Sometimes, the solution to the problem isn't throwing money at the problem.  It is possible to make the people in the system fix the system.  It just takes focus and resolve, and people not being resistant to change.

 

[PMedMoe]

Doh!  Seen...any thoughts on the Reg Force vs Army and/or Navy Res Med Tech courses equiv's?

I think all reserve training should be the same, regardless of element. 

[rant on]

Not to mention, that call outs for Class B/C should be to all reservists, again, regardless of element.  Obviously, for the trades that are strictly Army/Navy/Air, this is not an issue, but I can tell you, it used to irk the hell out of me (as a ARAF Tfc Tech) to see the Army Reserve get a full time Class B call out for an RMS clerk, who eventually got employed at CMTT, doing the job of a Tfc Tech.

[/rant off]

Back to your regularly scheduled thread.... 

 

[Phoenix80]

I'm actually in your corner and I think you and people like you have a better idea on how messed up the recruiting system currently is over us guys and girls who had to deal with it 10, 15 and 20 years ago. You need to make your voice heard and you need to help change the system because the future of the Canadian Forces is people like you.

On the other hand before you go bitching and insinuating we don't know what it's like to have our time wasted grab your head and shake it really hard because we've all dealt with it and had our time wasted by the system. Dare I say some of it is more significant than waiting a year to join.

If you want to make shoe wearing references yours are brand new and shiny, ours are worn down and our 9th pair.

:2c:

Hence the emailing, and my letter to the MND.

 

[Phoenix80]

Your process is delayed because you were a member of a foreign military (see, I know something about you). That means checks are done to see if you're actually discharged (honourably), or to confirm you're not AWOL. As well, seeing as how you list your rank as PFC, and have 2 years experience, you've lived outside Canada for at least 2-3 years and probably in the US. Now your ERC security check is exponentially more complex as they're going to have to search through US databases. You're also not a Canadian citizen, which adds more wait time even if you have permanent resident status, not to mention more time to the security check because you've more than likely lived outside Canada for more than the 2-3 years listed above, ERC goes back 10 years. Finally, considering your question about criminal records and "petty charges", I'm willing to bet there's something thats going to come up on a US background check, delaying your process further, despite your assurance that the charges were dropped.

So, please tell me again how I know nothing about you?

Background/reliability checks are contracted out, unless you need a pre-security screening because you've lived outside the country. Then you sit in the same boat with the rest of us waiting for security clearances, who are actually serving in the CF and need their clearances for operational reasons (yes, there is a priority system for deployments). The security screening system besides ERCs is completely outside the CFRG, and does clearances for everyone from MPs to CF members to RCMP people. Thats a lot of workload even if they have more staff.

If you want stressful and unproductive, just wait till you're actually in (if you get in). I've had times that are stressful, unproductive, or stressful because what I'm doing is unproductive. Welcome to the Canadian Forces.

No problem, don't mention it.

I have not lived in the US. Don't know where you got that. I've actually lived in Canada for more than 10+ years. I was honorably discharged from my country of birth's military service for which I have proper documents to present if asked. No problem. And I can still say that you sir know nothing about me. My petty charge was with respect to a silly incident on the campus of a university where I thought standing up for others meant something in this country. But believe it or not, I got that charge withdrawn and then had the RCMP to destroy the record. I have no debt, no legal obligations and I am okay with the ERC going through my past.

I have NO issue whatsoever with the verification process or the way it is done. In fact I think it is important for the government and the CF to ensure 'foreign' agents or bad guys can't get in. My issues are 1- The lack of concern among the recruiters about the applicants' time/energy/life and treating potential soldiers (in effect people who'd lay down their lives for their country) as mere numbers or files. It is not right. One can expect that treatment in a municipality when getting a permit or in a medical office (not even there) but not when it comes to an organization that is known (and should be) efficient and productive. I'd rather get the 'NO' answer now than to wait months and years to hear that while I am basically putting all this money and energy and enthusiasm to go through the recruiting process. 2- My other issue is the time it takes to do it.

I spent some time working for a parliamentarian a year ago in Ottawa and when I talked to the MND's office about a few issues I had in mind, I was basically told the issue of ERC being so lengthy and horrendous is that there are only a handful of people working on dozens and dozens of applications and the issue is 'staffing' and lack of funds to expand that unit that does the ERC. Now I'd like to ask you, would it hurt to write to the MND and email the said journalist and tell her where the issue lays? I believe these are valid concerns.

Have a good one!

 

[CombatDoc]

Air Reserve Med Techs do the same training as Reg F Med Techs.  Not sure about the Naval Reserve ones.  The Army isn't the only one with Reserves. 

I do not believe this is true, since the issue of training discrepancies between Res and Reg F medical qualifications often arises.  That is why, for example, there are a Reserve "Medical Assistants" and Regular "Medical Technicians".  Reservists often lack the Primary Care Paramedic (PCP) qualification which limits how they can be employed.  IIRC, the Naval Reserve got rid of integral medical support years ago and converted those positions into hard sea trades.

 

[PMedMoe]

I do not believe this is true, since the issue of training discrepancies between Res and Reg F medical qualifications often arises.  That is why, for example, there are a Reserve "Medical Assistants" and Regular "Medical Technicians".  Reservists often lack the Primary Care Paramedic (PCP) qualification which limits how they can be employed.  IIRC, the Naval Reserve got rid of integral medical support years ago and converted those positions into hard sea trades.

If things haven't changed in the last few years, ARAF people do Reg F courses.  The discrepancy (at least in my experience) is with the Army Reserves.  As far as ARAF types getting PCP, I don't know.  But I never had it as a Reg F Med Tech either.  :dunno:

 

[kratz]

[Thread Tangent]

[quote author=PMedMoe]
Air Reserve Med Techs do the same training as Reg F Med Techs.  Not sure about the Naval Reserve ones.  The Army isn't the only one with Reserves.  [/quote]

NavRes lost (gave up) all medical trades in the mid-1990s consolidation.
Generally speaking, NavRes attempts to meet RegF training standards whenever/wherever possible.
As others have noted, some deltas are unable to be met.
[/Thread Tangent]