Cdn. soldiers accidentally kill Afghan civilian

[Mike Baker]

Sad to hear but that thing happens.  How long have we been there?  How long have these ROEs been in place?  Enough said.  "Canadians on a shooting spree", give me a break!  It's only becuase some TB and other Afghanis don't or fail to understand "STOP"  They've all been told.  What the CBC needs to  (or fails to) understand is that it's not just another red light, it's a red light with a "danger, you're about to get shot" line. 
Good for our guys for following ROE, again!
No Canadian Soldier has ever been charged for following ROE.
They might have bad dreams and PTSD, but at least they will know that they were right.
My 0.02 

+1, took the words out of my mouth.

 

[Fraser.g]

Here is the latest spin off from the incident.


http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/TopStories/ContentPosting.aspx?newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20070227%2fcivilian_shooting_070227&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V2&showbyline=True

Afghan police push to provide security for convoys
27/02/2007 1:27:31 PM  CTV news link

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


A civilian shooting in Afghanistan on Tuesday by Canadian troops is highlighting an ongoing push to have local authorities handle security for foreign military convoys.


CTV.ca News Staff

Maj. Dale MacEachern briefs reporters on Feb. 19, 2007 about the attacks on a Canadian convoy in Kandahar City, Afghanistan. (CP / Murray Brewster) 
On Tuesday, an Afghan male driving a white Toyota approached Canadian soldiers as they formed a security cordon around a broken-down armoured vehicle.

Army spokesperson Maj. Dale MacEachern said the driver of the vehicle failed to heed warnings to stop and was shot dead after accelerating in the direction of the troops.

Tuesday's shooting is the fourth time this month that troops have shot dead an Afghan civilian.

Abdul Quadar Noorzai, the regional program manager of the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission, is pushing to have Afghan authorities handle security on convoys.

Although the Afghan National Police did have a checkpoint at the site of Tuesday's incident, Noorzai said that foreign troops, Afghan forces and civilians are not co-ordinated well enough.

Noorzai told the Canadian Press that it would be "better to let Afghan Army or Afghan police handle security on convoys. If they were to let the chief of police know when they are moving between places it would be great."

Last Friday, Kandahar police chief Asmatullah Alizai put forward the proposal in a meeting with Canadian military officers.

It would require Canadians to disclose convoy times and routes with Afghan authorities.

The idea is getting "serious consideration" but it makes the military nervous because of security concerns, MacEachern told CP.

Just last week, Canadian Forces ordered troops to use more restraint before firing to avoid killing civilians accidentally.

In a separate incident Tuesday, a militant with explosives strapped to his chest blew himself up on a crowded street, injuring three bystanders.

No Canadian troops were in the area.

Canada has about 2,500 soldiers based in Afghanistan, mostly in the Kandahar region. Since the mission began in 2002, 44 Canadian soldiers and one diplomat have been killed in Afghanistan.

With files from the Canadian Press


We are going to do whaaaat.
I don't think so, to give the timings and details of our convoys to the local police be as detrimental to the longevity of our troops as posing them at the front gate of KAF.

Aw heck, lets just go out with soft skinned vehicles only and depend on the local populations good will to keep us safe.

End sarcasm

GF

 

 

[Korus]

In a separate incident Tuesday, a militant with explosives strapped to his chest blew himself up on a crowded street, injuring three bystanders.

No Canadian troops were in the area.

I love that little part, warranting only two sentances. For those who've been, how many damn times have we heard about some TB explosion in a crowded market or street, randomly killing Afghan civilians.. But that's not quite as newsworthy in Canada as Canadian soldiers dealing with the realities of war that people back home will NEVER understand.

 

[Jarnhamar]

RN PRN I want royalties on that picture.

My modeling career aside, the funny (and useless) thing about that sign is that it tells them their suposed to stop what, 50 meters away? Theres no way they can read the sign at 50 meters. By the time a driver can actually read the sign the soldiers should have already shot them.
Signs=useless.

Civilian casualties are bound to happen in Afghanistan as it is a war zone. But....have you ever thought of the TB disguising some of their own fighters as civilians and using this to wreck havoc on our troops'

I think he's bang on with this.
The TB  don't wear uniforms, they DO look like civilians. You can tell their TB when they start shooting at you.
Problem is half the time even the afghan police are dressed like civilians, with AKs and RPGs.

 

[GDawg]

As is evident by the inappropriate use of the word "accidental" or the phrase "shooting spree" it is clear to me and likely to other Canadians that journalistic integrity is on the decline in this country. Are Canadian forces being slagged intentionally as part of some agenda or do these journalists simply have an appallingly poor grasp of critical thinking and a handicapped vocabulary?

Poorly educated journalists or ones with a deeply ingrained agenda pose a far, far greater threat to my freedom and my way of life than the Taliban ever could. We can win hearts and minds over there, but how can we win them over here?

 

[KevinB]

The is just there so "we" can say there is a visible warning.

Fact - people know not to approach Army convoys - be it CF, US, Brit, ANA etc.
  Come to close you get shot.


That said there are a lot of stupid people out there...

 

[Staff Weenie]

Twitch may actually have a point - consider this - what is a suicide bomber? Somebody willing to die for their cause.  The bomb vest or old arty shells in the trunk are just a means to an end. Now, consider what the TB are using these stooges for - to achieve a political end - that is the withdrawal of all foreign troops from southern Afghanistan so that they can take power from what little central govt exists.

So......taking this further - the TB have not been successful in their suicide bombing campaign - NATOs resolve isn't really overly shaken. Furthermore, the suicide bombers have killed, as collateral damage, far more civilians than NATO personnel. And, NATO is flooding even more troops into the area, carrying with them all their nasty ideals of equality and democracy - not good, some of that might just rub off on the locals. Even worse, if the locals become too sympathetic and supportive of NATO, then they might turn TB folks over for $$$. And, possibly the worst scenario for the TB - if local security improves, then Aid Groups will come back, and then people will have an improved standard of living, and then they won't be as likely to believe all the crap they've been spoonfed for decades.

Right now, the general population may not want foreign troops around, but the TB is clearly worse.....so they have lost some support in their key population base - not good!

So......to achieve their political end now, the TB need to get the general public back on side, and how can they do this - perhaps by having so-called 'innocent and unarmed civilians' shot by NATO troops. If you've got somebody ready to die to get our folks out of the country, do they care whether it's from a self immolation via a bomb vest, or shot for accelerating past a roadblock?

These things are played up in our media, and all over Afghan media - the TB benefits from a PR campaign on two fronts.

I'd love to see more of a background investigation into who these drivers are, and whether their families have received a wee bit o cash on the side....

I think that maybe parts of the local population is nearing a tipping point where they will see NATO as clearly better than the alternative, and that's got the TB worried. They need to do something, without further alienating the locals.

Maybe I'm out of my lane here, but maybe not.

 

[GAP]

That sure seems like a viable option

 

[missionessential]

Good for our guys for following ROE, again!
No Canadian Soldier has ever been charged for following ROE.
They might have bad dreams and PTSD, but at least they will know that they were right.
My 0.02 

And they're still alive!

 

[TN2IC]

This Public Relations for the Taliban seems to sound right to me. It doesn't matter if you strap an IED on you.. or get a 5.56 round in you. As long as you gave your life up for whomever. That is the cause for them.

 

[KevinB]

Twitch may actually have a point -

Twitchs historyy flaws made most of us skeptical of the rest of his points.

The VC where the ones in Black PJ's -- the NVA was a uniformed conventonal force.

The VC got wiped out in the Tet offensive when they tried to go conventional.

 

[vonGarvin]

The TB is testing "us".  (I refrain from calling Canadian soldiers in battle "them": I'm on their team!  But, I put the word us in quotes because I am not there).  As mentioned, this was an info-ops attack.  Just look at the result.  Had that fella had a bomb and tried that, it would have been a Canadian success
"Troops thwart suicide bomber attack"

Instead, there was no bomb

"Canadian soldier accidentally kill Afghan civilian". 

Two flaws there, though, that was no accident (on any party's side) and that, my lads, was no Afghan civilian.

IMHO.


Troops "over there", if you are reading this, you did the right thing.  It was the royal "we" who dropped the ball (the MSM).  Keep up the good fight, and don't let them fool you: that was a deliberate act, because there is no way after five years of knowing to stay back from the Big Green Machine that you suddenly decide to speed up.  This was an attack aimed at garnering support, not from the Birkenstock Brigade, but from those in the middle, the undecided, who, they hope, will see our lads as aggressors.  Don't be fooled!

 

[geo]

watched the CBC, they were interviewing the locals.... none of them had a problem with the shooting.  Then they have a big spot of the bloody insides of the car followed by an interview with a spokesman...You hear the spokesman's voice jump in with "and then he accelerated ............. absolutely no mention that he blew thru the ANP/ANA roadblock.

Disgusting!  Talk about manipulation in the 1st order!!!!!

 

[safeboy43]

Disgusting!  Talk about manipulation in the 1st order!!!!!

+1

 

[The Bread Guy]

And now, for a solution that I don't think will solve the problem (and likely create different new ones) - shared with the usual disclaimer....

Afghan escort for our troops?
Canadian Press, via Edmonton Sun online, 28 Feb 07
Article Link

Frustrated by a spate of civilian shootings, Afghan National Police and the head of the local human rights commission have recommended to Canadian commanders that military convoys be shepherded by local authorities.

The issue was brought sharply into focus again yesterday when a civilian driver was gunned down as he approached a broken-down Canadian armoured vehicle. It was the fourth time this month that an Afghan bystander has been shot dead by Canadian troops.

The shootings have put a strain on relations between Canadian soldiers and civilians, who are often caught in the crossfire or hit by wayward warning shots.

'WOULD BE BETTER'

"I ask you: Why are civilians being shot?" said Abdul Quadar Noorzai, of the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission. "It would be better to let Afghan army or Afghan police handle security on convoys. If they were to let the chief of police know when they are moving between places it would be great."

Kandahar Police Chief Asmatullah Alizai made the proposal to Canadian military officers last Friday.

"It is an offer we are giving serious consideration to at this time," Canadian Maj. Dale MacEachern said yesterday.

The proposal would require the Canadians to share convoy times and routes with Afghan authorities -- something that makes the military nervous because of security concerns.

The latest incident happened yesterday when an Afghan man driving a white Toyota -- the kind favoured by suicide bombers -- was shot by soldiers who formed a security cordon around the broken-down vehicle.

MacEachern said the driver failed to heed repeated warnings to stop. The car apparently had passed a checkpoint manned by Afghan police.

 

[geo]

The latest incident happened yesterday when an Afghan man driving a white Toyota -- the kind favoured by suicide bombers -- was shot by soldiers who formed a security cordon around the broken-down vehicle.

MacEachern said the driver failed to heed repeated warnings to stop. The car apparently had passed a checkpoint manned by Afghan police.

That's the part that CBC intentionaly omitted from their video "news" report on the incident.....

If you're going to report the news.... how about telling it all - instead of only a portion of the story.  :???

 

[FastEddy]

And now, for a solution that I don't think will solve the problem (and likely create different new ones) - shared with the usual disclaimer....

Afghan escort for our troops?
Canadian Press, via Edmonton Sun online, 28 Feb 07
Article Link

Frustrated by a spate of civilian shootings, Afghan National Police and the head of the local human rights commission have recommended .


'WOULD BE BETTER'

"I ask you: Why are civilians being shot?" said Abdul Quadar Noorzai, of the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission. "It would be better to let Afghan army or Afghan police handle security on convoys. If they were to let the chief of police know when they are moving between places it would be great."

Kandahar Police Chief Asmatullah Alizai made the proposal to Canadian military officers last Friday.

"It is an offer we are giving serious consideration to at this time," Canadian Maj. Dale MacEachern said yesterday.

Please !, just explain to me how that is going to help, their overall performance (Police) seems to be questionable from the onset.

Its beginning to appear that the mentality of certain elements of the Civilian population are harboring a Death wish, a growing desire to ignore the authority of the Military and to abandon complete personal Safety and caution.

If these persons insist on throwing them selves under the buses, the Afghan Government & Authorities might be better off, educating the general public.

Its not Rocket Science, STOP, SLOW DOWN, GET OUT OF THE VEHICLE, GET DOWN ON THE GROUND, don,t go near the men with the guns.

IMO, our Men & Women are doing a fine job and I'm glad they are performing and judging on the side of Caution and Safety and insuring the lives of their Comrades.

If Civilians get Killed in War its called Collateral Damage, especially when they throw them selves under the Bus.

God Bless all our Troops Here and Afar.

 

[GAP]

I can think of just about any combat condition where this would not go over well. Give the weakest, most corrupt link in the security net all the information so they can coordinate what......a visible show of support and , oh, BTW....an ambush just down the road...he's waiting as per your schedule.

They did it in part in Viet Nam, until we stopped giving out the information we were hit repeatedly. Just because you fight with them, does not mean you have to trust them.

 

[geo]

Eddy,
from my perspective, I can visualise the International (Cdn) news reporters coming up to the Afghan authorities & sticking a microphone in their face asking  "isn't it terrible that the Canadian troops keep on shooting your citzen?"

Well, yeah, duh!.... but the afghan politico then has to say & elaborate on what he's been asking to have done (using past tense) .... let authorities look after escorts, etc....

The media circus is at the root of this problem - IMHO!

(rant off)

 

[FastEddy]

Eddy,
from my perspective,

The media circus is at the root of this problem - IMHO!

(rant off)

        +1

Cheers.