"Canadian general vents anger over bombings to Afghan village elders"

[mariomike]

"If we don't start getting some serious co-operation from the people ... then I wonder whether or not it's worth another Canadian life," Vance said.:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090928/national/afghan_cda_vance_ied

 

[X-mo-1979]

Let me guess...They came down from the mountains at night....They dont live in our villiage,they come here and plant bombs and leave...

Funny thing is every village says the same thing.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Ive got answer for him. Kandahar and Afghanistan are not, and never were, worth a single Canadian life. Taking the fight to our enemies in their own back yard is, and always will be, worth it in costs of life and limb. The real question is, are the people we are fighting the same people as our enemy, or the uncertain friend of our real enemy - whoever they are.

 

[kratz]

As quoted in the Ottawa Citizen, the MND supports BGen Vance's message to the villagers. As predictable, the NDP have their own spin on this.

 

[PuckChaser]

I like BGen Vance, he's got the balls to stand up and say what everyone is thinking. The Afghans want our money, but don't like the strings that come with it.

 

[Infanteer]

Let me guess...They came down from the mountains at night....They dont live in our villiage,they come here and plant bombs and leave...

Funny thing is every village says the same thing.

Once we start hearing "They came from the mountains so we got our guns and told them to leave", then we'll know we're winning.  Until then....

 

[X-mo-1979]

Once we start hearing "They came from the mountains so we got our guns and told them to leave", then we'll know we're winning.  Until then....

Wouldn't that be great eh?haul into a KLE and they hand over detainee's and body parts.
Here's to hoping.

 

[Infanteer]

Wouldn't that be great eh?haul into a KLE and they hand over detainee's and body parts.
Here's to hoping.

That's how the American's "won" in Iraq (although I'm still convinced that it was more due to the Iraqi populace getting sick of a civil war) - they turned the Sunni tribes against AQ.

It speaks to this question - is a strange ANA soldier likely to afford you any greater perception of local security than a strange ISAF soldier when your conception of nationality doesn't really go beyond your local fields or district? 

Something encapsulated in this article

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200810/afghan

I don't really know the answer and I wonder if the tribal dynamic in Afghanistan would be conducive to something akin to an "Anbar Awakening".

 

[X-mo-1979]

Thanks for the article.That is one well written truthful article (in my opinion anyway).

(although I'm still convinced that it was more due to the Iraqi populace getting sick of a civil war)

Me too.In Iraq these people wanted normal life's again.
Remind me of a conversation I had with an American officer in Afghanistan.He had been in Iraq previously and said that Afghanistan was much worse.He told me once he got mortared in Iraq and the Iraqi civilians were actually approaching him and telling him where the mortar team was.I have yet to see that in Afghanistan,things are improving however.

The best sentence in that article you posted:
"you can’t beat a rural insurgency without a rural security presence. "
In the long run we will win over the population.Not to mention the Taliban attacking from the outside of the villages are prime target for CAS/Arty,AND reduces collateral damage keeping the civilians happy yet again (not that we do much/any collateral anyway).

We also have to be ready to deal with the Taliban "civilians".

 

[OldSolduer]

"NDP defence critic Jack Harris, however, said that Vance's outburst was "a very surprising reaction from a general who is supposedly trying to win the hearts and minds of the people he is trying to protect in Afghanistan."

What happened to Dawn Black?

 

[Jammer]

She knew less than Jack Harris.
I sent him and email last night asking him what his experience in Afghanistan was and what gave him the right to comment on something he did not witness.
No answer yet

 

[vonGarvin]

Once we start hearing "They came from the mountains so we got our guns and told them to leave", then we'll know we're winning.  Until then....

That has happened over there.  There's a reason there aren't too many IED attacks in Arghandab district.  (OK, "not as many" as in Zharey/Panjwayi)

 

[vonGarvin]

If I have learned one thing in my military career, it is this.  Never EVER piss off Jonathan Vance.  EVER!  He has God-like wrath, with a very well-developed intellect to go with it.  His anger is never pure-emotion.  It is well-thought out, and there is always a reason for it.  This is the perfect example of the difference between "us" (NATO et al) and "them" (Taliban, HiG, et al).  If "they" get pissed at you, they kill you.  If "we" get pissed, according to NDP defence critic Jack Harris, we act nice and play nice.  In other words, all carrot, all the time. 

Then Jonathan Vance comes along.  He understands VERY well the theory of Carrot and Stick, and he's not afraid to apply either in liberal quantities.  The difference is this: if Deh-e-Bagh keeps allowing "them" to plant bombs and the like, then Deh-e-Bagh will receive "least favoured village status", and the rival village across the road/wadi/desert/whatever will start to get "the goods". 

So, BZ to BGen Vance.  I sure as hell hope that his successors follow on with his "tough side/rough side" attitude.  He's a true gentleman, and he knows how to fight this fight.

EDIT TO ADD:

Twenty minutes after the shura, the local police chief and representative of the National Directorate of Security offered up a potential suspect in the bombing. The man, who had family ties to the Taliban, was taken into custody for questioning.

Hopefully this means that the elders of Deh-e-Bagh are getting the message. 

 

[HollywoodHitman]

What happened to Dawn Black?

She's now Provincial NDP vs Federal. She has her eyes on the Premier's office no doubt.

 

[The Bread Guy]

...on this one, via the stopwar.ca blog:

Some people have issues with anger. For many, their anger makes them unable to carry on healthy relationships or hold a job. A few, however, find a niche in society where their issues are afforded more tolerance, such as professional tennis. Or the military's officer corps ....  Vance's patronizing words and negotiation-by-threat seem ill-suited to improve what are evidently already strained relations with the elders.

WTF?  And I guess the Taliban's approach to "winning hearts and minds" is better?  Beheadings?  Amputations?  Threats in the night?  Blowing up buses full of civvies?

 

[X-mo-1979]

Imagine if they seen one of us turn a Taliban to red mist.Bet that would be the wrong approach as well.

How does one become expert in this country on something you have never seen,or been to?
I'm gonna write CTV/CBC and see if I can get my own show on all about civil law.I don't have a dam clue what civil law is all about,but if I talk about it I must know what I'm talking about.

Stop war....theres a awesome idea.betcha that's gonna happen.
Should start my own blog,stopbreathing.ca .See if I can convince half these Canadian Hippies to die by telling them breathing is destroying the earth.

 

[COBRA-6]

C'mon X-mo, you know it's simpler than that! If only the government would listen to stopwar's solutions:

No military = No war! If we don't have an Army then we won't be tempted to use it.

Just like no Police Dept = no crime, and no Fire Department = no fires!

See, it's simple! If only us warmongers would listen...

 

[Infanteer]

...on this one, via the stopwar.ca blog:

That guy's facts are all messed up - everyone knows it was Colin Farrell who portrayed Alexander the Great, not Brad Pitt....gawd.  :

 

[X-mo-1979]

C'mon X-mo, you know it's simpler than that! If only the government would listen to stopwar's solutions:

No military = No war! If we don't have an Army then we won't be tempted to use it.

Just like no Police Dept = no crime, and no Fire Department = no fires!

See, it's simple! If only us warmongers would listen...

haha.
Is it bad to pray for a invasion of Canada?Or a large scale terrorist attack?The youth of this country have been coddled their whole existence.Let's see if they have the same idea's when their parents are trapped in under a blown up building
and enemy are raping and killing civilians on a mass scale.Ideals are awesome.They make good movies.

Stopwar is the product of the "you can be anything Liberal school teacher".Guess what kid...you'll never be an astronaut,your colour blind so you can't fly a fighter jet,your too fat to be a cop...

Keep dreaming kids.Keep making crafts,and banners for protests.meanwhile the evil enemy military people will be out putting a stop to certain wars.

Infanteer....I know first thing I noticed.They can't even get hollywood right.Morons.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

If I have learned one thing in my military career, it is this.  Never EVER piss off Jonathan Vance.  EVER!  He has God-like wrath, with a very well-developed intellect to go with it.  His anger is never pure-emotion. 

Amen <Dave sub-consciously scratches scars>