CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia

[childs56]

Why build off the LAV 6 chassis into a tracked vehicle when the US already looked at it years ago and didnt like it? As many have mentioned on here the LAV 6 chassis is at its limits and it also doesnt have the right profile for an IFV.

The US did not like the Stryker TR. That was the earlier version with less protection, the push was for another system at the time for another plant to produce a different system.

Thing is a good word The Boxer suspension is a little different from the LAV, and so it may be a little more viable for tracked implementation, but generally the hulls for Tracked are significantly different designs than Wheeled.

Pretty similar suspension set up from the looks of it. But maybe they did some magic with a wishbone/torsion suspension system.
The GDLS prototype was gauging the interest of converting current systems to a tracked config. With the amount of wheeled, no good for nothing LAV/Strikers out there I would have thought some of you would be all over this conversion.
I like the idea because it Gives Countries like Canada an option to convert or buy a tracked fleet that has commonality with our current wheeled fleet.
If they could modify the current drive line to a track system within a few hours. That will give a command the option for different areas of ops to use either wheeled or track system.
Heavy Industry has been doing similar wheel to track setups for working on soft ground. Add wide tires gain flotation, add tracks crawl through anything. Remove tracks when working on hard pack.

The LAV body design isn’t ideal (or practical) for a Tracked system. Its purpose built for wheels — trying to shoehorn it into a Tracked LAV is quite frankly idiotic and GDLS has done to that understanding as well.

Wheels can be switched to tracks. GDLS has not closed the idea down, their largest customer said no. But they also said no to the LAV. Then bought a pile of them for the army. Who really knows.
If Canada asked we would get a LAV TR, (not a Stryker TR). I think it would add value to our current fleet. Plus it is easier to sell to the public as a upgrade to a platform we already own.

GDLS makes a tracked IFV already, so if one wants GDLS Canada to make a Tracked IFV just get the one that they already can build.

Yaaa but does it really work..... Does it add simplicity to our fleet?

 

[KevinB]

The US did not like the Stryker TR. That was the earlier version with less protection, the push was for another system at the time for another plant to produce a different system.

Pretty similar suspension set up from the looks of it. But maybe they did some magic with a wishbone/torsion suspension system.
The GDLS prototype was gauging the interest of converting current systems to a tracked config. With the amount of wheeled, no good for nothing LAV/Strikers out there I would have thought some of you would be all over this conversion.
I like the idea because it Gives Countries like Canada an option to convert or buy a tracked fleet that has commonality with our current wheeled fleet.
If they could modify the current drive line to a track system within a few hours. That will give a command the option for different areas of ops to use either wheeled or track system.
Heavy Industry has been doing similar wheel to track setups for working on soft ground. Add wide tires gain flotation, add tracks crawl through anything. Remove tracks when working on hard pack.

Wheels can be switched to tracks. GDLS has not closed the idea down, their largest customer said no. But they also said no to the LAV. Then bought a pile of them for the army. Who really knows.
If Canada asked we would get a LAV TR, (not a Stryker TR). I think it would add value to our current fleet. Plus it is easier to sell to the public as a upgrade to a platform we already own.

Yaaa but does it really work..... Does it add simplicity to our fleet?

Yes you can out it on tracks. We aren’t disagreeing it’s possible - but then it sits higher than it needs to, and the wheel wells need to get filled etc.

The point is it isn’t a practical design.

If you want a tracked vehicle (and I think Canada should have at least one heavy tracked Bde) then get a real purpose designed one - not the LAV’s retarded half brother.

 

[suffolkowner]

hybrid propulsion should offer more flexibility in layout for both tracked and wheeled vehicles. Strange that it hasnt penetrated into military/construction/mining equipment more. Is the Stryker X an actual Stryker or LAV 6 or LAV 700?

 

[FJAG]

Honestly, we don't need to convert the LAVs. We do need tracked IFVs, but we also need wheeled APCs like the LAV. We have an unequipped reserve force. Take three battalions of LAVs and convert those battalions to a tracked IFV - AJAX family seems to be working now so we can throw a bone to GDLS-C. Make that our Europe force.

Send the three bns of LAVs to the divisional training centres and use them to train folks, including reservists. Leave three bns with LAVs - make them our everything else fleet.

 

[brihard]

Honestly, we don't need to convert the LAVs. We do need tracked IFVs, but we also need wheeled APCs like the LAV. We have an unequipped reserve force. Take three battalions of LAVs and convert those battalions to a tracked IFV - AJAX family seems to be working now so we can throw a bone to GDLS-C. Make that our Europe force.

Send the three bns of LAVs to the divisional training centres and use them to train folks, including reservists. Leave three bns with LAVs - make them our everything else fleet.

You’ve just added LAV gunner and Crew Commander to PRes infantry NCO career paths. This takes away a summer of instructing that the PRes absolutely cannot afford to lose from the short half life of most of its NCO corps.

 

[FJAG]

You’ve just added LAV gunner and Crew Commander to PRes infantry NCO career paths. This takes away a summer of instructing that the PRes absolutely cannot afford to lose from the short half life of most of its NCO corps.

Perfect experience for developing RegF junior NCMs to move them along their way to making MCpl.

 

[daftandbarmy]

You’ve just added LAV gunner and Crew Commander to PRes infantry NCO career paths. This takes away a summer of instructing that the PRes absolutely cannot afford to lose from the short half life of most of its NCO corps.

Wait, are we 'caring' about ARes career progression now?

 

[quadrapiper]

Honestly, we don't need to convert the LAVs. We do need tracked IFVs, but we also need wheeled APCs like the LAV. We have an unequipped reserve force. Take three battalions of LAVs and convert those battalions to a tracked IFV - AJAX family seems to be working now so we can throw a bone to GDLS-C. Make that our Europe force.

Send the three bns of LAVs to the divisional training centres and use them to train folks, including reservists. Leave three bns with LAVs - make them our everything else fleet.

Not thinking of cap badges as such, but how best to group specialties and their practitioners: tracked infantry, wheeled infantry, and light (jump, mountain, ski, aggressive hiking, etc.) infantry regiments?

 

[markppcli]

Perfect experience for developing RegF junior NCMs to move them along their way to making MCpl.

Ah yes tasking Cpls as though they were rank above with neither pay nor respect afforded. Can’t see that being anything but a net positive for retention. Should probably make sure it’s over the summer so they can get that sweet Springs Exercises - tasked all summer - 3 weeks at home - Fall exercise - op tempo.

 

[FJAG]

Not thinking of cap badges as such, but how best to group specialties and their practitioners: tracked infantry, wheeled infantry, and light (jump, mountain, ski, aggressive hiking, etc.) infantry regiments?

If I have it right the US has unified its basic infantry MOS into just one 11B. After that its add-on training at the unit. (There's a separate MOS for indirect fire infantry aka mortars MOS - 11C)

Not an expert (or even generally knowledgeable) about current infantry training but I could easily see a single DP1 inf qualification that teaches everything that there is to know about dismounted infantry work and all the weapons they use and then have add-on specialist DP2 courses at the unit to teach the vehicle specific sub-trades.

Ah yes tasking Cpls as though they were rank above with neither pay nor respect afforded. Can’t see that being anything but a net positive for retention.

Approach it as a learning and career development experience and weed out those who whine from those who welcome opportunities to expand their skills.

Should probably make sure it’s over the summer so they can get that sweet Springs Exercises - tasked all summer - 3 weeks at home - Fall exercise - op tempo.

The CAF only gives folks with less than five years 20 working days leave, not the whole summer. That leaves at least a whole month to enjoy the pleasure of mentoring those less fortunate than them who have to use their 2 or 3 weeks of annual vacation time to learn military skills.

 

[markppcli]

If I have it right the US has unified its basic infantry MOS into just one 11B. After that its add-on training at the unit. (There's a separate MOS for indirect fire infantry aka mortars MOS - 11C)

Not an expert (or even generally knowledgeable) about current infantry training but I could easily see a single DP1 inf qualification that teaches everything that there is to know about dismounted infantry work and all the weapons they use and then have add-on specialist DP2 courses at the unit to teach the vehicle specific sub-trades.


Approach it as a learning and career development experience and weed out those who whine from those who welcome opportunities to expand their skills.



The CAF only gives folks with less than five years 20 working days leave, not the whole summer. That leaves at least a whole month to enjoy the pleasure of mentoring those less fortunate than them who have to use their 2 or 3 weeks of annual vacation time to learn military skills.

I don’t know that I’d call “quitting my job so I can have a semblance of a life” whining per se, but I suppose that’s just different lived experiences.

 

[FJAG]

I don’t know that I’d call “quitting my job so I can have a semblance of a life” whining per se, but I suppose that’s just different lived experiences.

Not really. Been there and done that - still have the T-shirt. I quit for a better life and not because I hated the one that I was leaving behind even though when I got out I had over 130 days accumulated leave. So I do know what you're talking about. I always had two or three weeks in the summer. It was the rest of the year that I was "too indispensable" to let go for a week or two. Most of the summer instruction of the reserves was done at our home base so there was no being away from the family.

The simple math equation is that the majority of army reserve soldiers need to be trained during the summer. That's the primary time that they have. Their leadership for the most part can't do it because they have full-time jobs and unlike the public service they don't get anywhere near the time off that government workers do. Many run their own businesses and don't know what vacations are at that point in their life. On top of that the RegF has drained off thousand of prime ResF instructors on Class B contracts in cubicles all over the country.

You and I both know that with the exception of troops about to deploy that the bulk of RegF training takes place September to May. By June things have wound down and July and August are both generally open. Yes, there is the APS but that doesn't affect everyone.

The folks quitting their jobs for a better life aren't doing it because they need to support the reserves for a few weeks in the summer. They're doing it because the system hasn't been able to fill the ranks with recruits and trained soldiers, and because they're meeting themselves coming off one deployment or course away from home after another and because training schedules do not recognize that training these reservists is vital if anyone wants to see reservists flesh out the ranks for those deployments.

I'll be blunt. I've seen far too many RegF folks who consider training reservists beneath them and as an inconvenience at best. I've been fortunate, in one respect, the RegF officers and NCMs that I served with saw the value in teaching reservists. That value came by way of the product that we turned out. And by product I include our RegF soldiers who were able to do instruction and leadership above their ordinary rank and be better prepared for their next step leadership training. We had lots of bombardiers who stepped up and would become the WOs of the next generation. And we had some who whined and never amounted to anything. Those who had stepped up and became the leaders of the next generation helped turn out all the ResF young gunners that filled the 15 to 25% or more of ranks that served the gun troops in Afghanistan. To a man, every RegF officer and NCO I interviewed stated flat out that reservists who had done predeployment training with them couldn't be distinguished from their RegF counterparts and that they wouldn't have been able to man the batteries without them. Proper training matters. A lot. For everyone. It's worth the effort.

 

[Maxman1]

AJAX family seems to be working now

 

[Halifax Tar]

Not really. Been there and done that - still have the T-shirt. I quit for a better life and not because I hated the one that I was leaving behind even though when I got out I had over 130 days accumulated leave. So I do know what you're talking about. I always had two or three weeks in the summer. It was the rest of the year that I was "too indispensable" to let go for a week or two. Most of the summer instruction of the reserves was done at our home base so there was no being away from the family.

The simple math equation is that the majority of army reserve soldiers need to be trained during the summer. That's the primary time that they have. Their leadership for the most part can't do it because they have full-time jobs and unlike the public service they don't get anywhere near the time off that government workers do. Many run their own businesses and don't know what vacations are at that point in their life. On top of that the RegF has drained off thousand of prime ResF instructors on Class B contracts in cubicles all over the country.

You and I both know that with the exception of troops about to deploy that the bulk of RegF training takes place September to May. By June things have wound down and July and August are both generally open. Yes, there is the APS but that doesn't affect everyone.

The folks quitting their jobs for a better life aren't doing it because they need to support the reserves for a few weeks in the summer. They're doing it because the system hasn't been able to fill the ranks with recruits and trained soldiers, and because they're meeting themselves coming off one deployment or course away from home after another and because training schedules do not recognize that training these reservists is vital if anyone wants to see reservists flesh out the ranks for those deployments.

I'll be blunt. I've seen far too many RegF folks who consider training reservists beneath them and as an inconvenience at best. I've been fortunate, in one respect, the RegF officers and NCMs that I served with saw the value in teaching reservists. That value came by way of the product that we turned out. And by product I include our RegF soldiers who were able to do instruction and leadership above their ordinary rank and be better prepared for their next step leadership training. We had lots of bombardiers who stepped up and would become the WOs of the next generation. And we had some who whined and never amounted to anything. Those who had stepped up and became the leaders of the next generation helped turn out all the ResF young gunners that filled the 15 to 25% or more of ranks that served the gun troops in Afghanistan. To a man, every RegF officer and NCO I interviewed stated flat out that reservists who had done predeployment training with them couldn't be distinguished from their RegF counterparts and that they wouldn't have been able to man the batteries without them. Proper training matters. A lot. For everyone. It's worth the effort.

I think in a world where we had a robust, happy and content Army full of MCpls and Sgts who felt appreciated and supported your idea probably makes sense, in a rotational basis so we don't keep giving this extra work to the same people every summer.

Unfortunately we don't live in that world. And our JR and middle ranks just aren't willing to receive belt fed you know what. And the more you fed that belt to them they more they speak with their feet and just walk away. Summer is more than just leave, people do things on the weekends and evenings as well. And we have to be careful how much of those evenings and weekends we eat up, because we (RegF) all don't get compensated for that in the same way or volume.

 

[KevinB]

I think in a world where we had a robust, happy and content Army full of MCpls and Sgts who felt appreciated and supported your idea probably makes sense, in a rotational basis so we don't keep giving this extra work to the same people every summer.

Unfortunately we don't live in that world. And our JR and middle ranks just aren't willing to receive belt fed you know what. And the more you fed that belt to them they more they speak with their feet and just walk away. Summer is more than just leave, people do things on the weekends and evenings as well. And we have to be careful how much of those evenings and weekends we eat up, because we (RegF) all don't get compensated for that in the same way or volume.

I refuse to believe that the National Guard can do something that the Canadian Army Reserve cannot.

A great deal of Reservists are also University students in the 4-7 years in the PRes, that gives them 3 months in the summer for 4 years, after 2-3 years of 2 months of High School.


Given Block Leave is realistically 1 month of the summer for most Reg Force personnel that leaves a great deal of time to assist with training.

If the PRes and RegF relationship wasn’t so adversarial, summer training could be a whole lot more useful for both.

LAV Driver and Gunner/CC courses are primarily run at the units - with a field phase for final confirmation and qualification.
It definitely shouldn’t be a significant issue to run the first few years of those qualifications in Edmonton, Pet, Valcartier, and Gagetown. Edmonton is the only one of those bases that then needs to go elsewhere for the firing side of the course, and Wainwright isn’t a terrible drive from Edmonton either.

In short you can’t suggest that having RegF personnel conduct summer training there is any sort of strain if it is managed correctly.

My recommendation for the LAV fleet would be to put them under the Armoured Reserve - have the PRes Inf be GIB’s and view the system as Cavalry /Protected Mobility

Having 1 Reg Force Bde as Heavy Armor/Tracked IFV (I’m still partial to the CV-90, but the M10 Booker chassis is common with the XM-30 GDLS Submission, which is like the AJAX, but purpose built for armor and a suspension and chassis designed for the weight).

 

[markppcli]

Not really. Been there and done that - still have the T-shirt. I quit for a better life and not because I hated the one that I was leaving behind even though when I got out I had over 130 days accumulated leave. So I do know what you're talking about. I always had two or three weeks in the summer. It was the rest of the year that I was "too indispensable" to let go for a week or two. Most of the summer instruction of the reserves was done at our home base so there was no being away from the family.

They let you accumulate leave? Must be nice. Home bases are not major training centers outside of Valcartier. So any mass running of summer training means more time away from home during those short summers where you can do something with your family.

The simple math equation is that the majority of army reserve soldiers need to be trained during the summer. That's the primary time that they have. Their leadership for the most part can't do it because they have full-time jobs and unlike the public service they don't get anywhere near the time off that government workers do. Many run their own businesses and don't know what vacations are at that point in their life. On top of that the RegF has drained off thousand of prime ResF instructors on Class B contracts in cubicles all over the country.

Is it thousands of prime instructors on class B? I don’t disagree class B is an addiction we need to kill, but is it over 10 percent of the reserves employed like that? Total? So what 1/4 of all reserve NCOs?

You and I both know that with the exception of troops about to deploy that the bulk of RegF training takes place September to May. By June things have wound down and July and August are both generally open. Yes, there is the APS but that doesn't affect everyone.

Yes typically July, June and August are for PCF cycles, we don’t just run one anymore it’s not workable, and are your time “at home” even if not on leave. I’m loath to remove that 1/4 of the year in which a soldier gets to come home to their family. Retention and all that.

The folks quitting their jobs for a better life aren't doing it because they need to support the reserves for a few weeks in the summer. They're doing it because the system hasn't been able to fill the ranks with recruits and trained soldiers, and because they're meeting themselves coming off one deployment or course away from home after another and because training schedules do not recognize that training these reservists is vital if anyone wants to see reservists flesh out the ranks for those deployments.

Mother quitting because they are doing extra tasks and jobs for which they are not respected. For example doing some instructor tasks as a Cpl for “development.” I don’t fully get the point you’re trying to make on your second sentence here.

I'll be blunt. I've seen far too many RegF folks who consider training reservists beneath them and as an inconvenience at best. I've been fortunate, in one respect, the RegF officers and NCMs that I served with saw the value in teaching reservists. That value came by way of the product that we turned out. And by product I include our RegF soldiers who were able to do instruction and leadership above their ordinary rank and be better prepared for their next step leadership training. We had lots of bombardiers who stepped up and would become the WOs of the next generation. And we had some who whined and never amounted to anything. Those who had stepped up and became the leaders of the next generation helped turn out all the ResF young gunners that filled the 15 to 25% or more of ranks that served the gun troops in Afghanistan. To a man, every RegF officer and NCO I interviewed stated flat out that reservists who had done predeployment training with them couldn't be distinguished from their RegF counterparts and that they wouldn't have been able to man the batteries without them. Proper training matters. A lot. For everyone. It's worth the effort.

Yes I agree we need to train, yes I agree the reserves need to be trained. But I echo the sentiment that was expressed years ago when we launched StAR, at some point the reserves has to be able to train itself.

 

[MilEME09]

Yes I agree we need to train, yes I agree the reserves need to be trained. But I echo the sentiment that was expressed years ago when we launched StAR, at some point the reserves has to be able to train itself.

Reg force can barely train it self right now, so why should the reserves be any different? The reserves already squeeze in as many weekend BMQ, PLQ, driver courses etc during the training year. Then we are expected to supply NCO's to the schools in summer to teach. I personally did it last year, I tought weekend PLQ, a BMQ, then went to RCEMES in the summer to teach CRTT, all on top of my fulltime job, and my family and work life balance suffered for it. There are only so many times in a career you can get someone to willingly burn them selves out of the sake of the unit, and the CAF. Instruction has to be standardized from a dedicated full time cadre, not plug on play instructors who do everything different.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I refuse to believe that the National Guard can do something that the Canadian Army Reserve cannot.

Who administers NG training ? NG members or Reg Force people ?

 

[KevinB]

Who administers NG training ? NG members or Reg Force people ?

Depends on what courses, but generally the NG does pretty much everything at Bde and Lower levels.
Exceptions are SF, where the Q Course is run at SFWC in Bragg, and senior officer courses, and some Staff NCO Courses.

Keep in mind the ARNG has full time staff (NG personnel on active duty) to help their admin (think of it like Class B).
Also due to GWOT the ARNG got a lot of experience in the early 2000's.

 

[markppcli]

Reg force can barely train it self right now, so why should the reserves be any different? The reserves already squeeze in as many weekend BMQ, PLQ, driver courses etc during the training year. Then we are expected to supply NCO's to the schools in summer to teach. I personally did it last year, I tought weekend PLQ, a BMQ, then went to RCEMES in the summer to teach CRTT, all on top of my fulltime job, and my family and work life balance suffered for it. There are only so many times in a career you can get someone to willingly burn them selves out of the sake of the unit, and the CAF. Instruction has to be standardized from a dedicated full time cadre, not plug on play instructors who do everything different.

And that’s the point, teaching from schools - yes. Pulling in people from units to augment training centers - no.